OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

@AlaskaNebraska

Oh! Post took so long to type that you've already answered this!

That was using the audio type thing too.

Just looked for weeping emoticon. YOU DONT HAVE ONE

MN cannot be held responsible for people's mental health, they just can't.

It should be clearly stated on the mental health topic that it is a peer support forum, nothing more. Peer support can be so beneficial and that absolutely should continue and be encouraged.

The guidelines should also clearly state that suicide note type threads will not be allowed to remain and the user should be emailed with the a list of support contacts.

This needs to be done proactively so that situations like the one with poor Wombat do not arise again. It's extremely sad that she has been called a troll and I'm sure for her that is incredibly hurtful. I'm certain she is real and was in a terribly dark place that night. I do think she made an error in asking for help the way In the way that she did but we all make mistakes. I hope she is getting the help she needs now and at some point feels able to come back to this forum.

Absolute clarity in the guidelines will help prevent this situation arising again.

The other problem with offering support on these suicide type threads is what happens when the person doesn't get any responses? Will people hold mumsnet responsible in those situations? When someone lonely looks for help, isn't dramatic enough to get the savers interested and then goes off and does something about it?

I think it is less likely to be a troll when they have posted 1649 times and then they change names and say something (I mean of course they can be lying but less likely then someone who has posted once.

Problem is with the trolls - when they are joining up just to spam the boards - maybe they can join up and not be able to start their own threads for a couple of weeks - ESP on AIBU? may cut it down as they can't get the instant attention
P

I get why that thread was deleted, but why was the op banned? (assuming that was true)

The thing is, with no HQ around over night, things don't get dealt with. Genuine posters are hurt at accusations, and real trolls are having a fine old time.

Well, genuine posters wouldnt get hurt at accusations if people werent making accusations, would they?

If you dont beleive, report and dont join in. Because sidetrack arguments about the details and people trying to prove or disprove trolling will drive the post to end up in the most active list, and multiply the audience for the troll (if they are) or multiply the accusations and complicate things for an honest poster.

I think users always need to accept the risk they take when posting for suicidal thoughts or other mental health issues that they might not get 100% the support they are looking for on a forum which is no expert in this field.

If you truly want to be believed without question, truly want unwavering support, then contact Samaritans.

We seem to get a lot of aftermath posts of "I posted here to get support and someone called me a troll and now I'm really upset." It's like a guilt-trip, saying "I was expecting you to rescue me but you didn't do it like I wanted."

Hand-holding, sometimes empathy, and un-mumsnetty hugs...that's really all one should reasonably expect from a place that is not really equipped to handle the situation.

I agree with that. Saga.

I don't think the cries for HQ to tract down the OP of such threads should happen either.

I agree with Sleepy, I'm a member of a crafting forum (yes, I'm a saddo who sticks bits of paper together), new users on there are only allowed to access certain parts of the forum for their first month - the general crafting boards but not the Community or selling boards, they're also not allowed to PM or post on selling or community boards until they've posted 10 times on the general boards.
Would something like that be possible on MN? Restrict new users to certain boards for a while?

The other problem with offering support on these suicide type threads is what happens when the person doesn't get any responses? Will people hold mumsnet responsible in those situations? When someone lonely looks for help, isn't dramatic enough to get the savers interested and then goes off and does something about it?

The mumsnet collective is not responsible for someone's suicide choice through lack of notice. That's like blaming everyone on the number 4 bus because they didnt notice the "I'm going to kill myself' note someone left before getting off the bus and committed suicide. On the other hand, bullying someone that the collective has come to believe is a troll, who was not, and having THAT become known in the aftermath of a suicide? That would indeed be a big blackeye to MNHQ and all the rest of us. Makes us no better than 4chan or the nastier parts of Reddit, or 12 year old girls texting and instagramming about that one girl. Anonymous bullying, even my mums like us, is still bullying.

For goodness sake, posting outlandish stories is not the only way to troll. Shouting "troll!" and getting people to take up pitchforks is too. If they can get it driven to the active threads list, they have won the thread, and if they can get the honest OP in trouble? Grand Champion work there! Report, don't accuse, don't comment, keep the thread under the radar. If you feel you must discuss it with names you know, take it private rather than chat to each other via comments.

I'm just dipping into this thread, as I don't come on here much anymore. And the reason I don't come on here much any more is that I think the site has become so bitchy and so full of troll hunters that reading some of the threads immediately gets my hackles up. It here are clearly cases when someone is trolling, but if it's just a case of someone giving slightly inconsistent details, or asking a question that may be controversial, I hate when almost immediately someone starts calling troll. None of us own this site. Perhaps some people need to take a step back.

I was making the point that if mumsnet has to take on the responsibility of protecting vulnerable people or suicidal people who choose to post here to prevent any blame being on their shoulders, like people have suggested it would be, it would have to take on the responsibility for all of them. Not just the ones the rescuers get interested in because it's dramatic or they get to play the hero. The quiet ones too who get one or two responses because they didn't ham it up.

So where would it end? It's better that mumsnet stays what it is and doesn't try to become a mental health or suicide support service. It would sink if it tried that.

But it's the risk you take when posting on a public internet forum. This place is 99.9% supportive, funny, insightful, etc...

...but it's also made up of thousands of people with differing opinions, and you have to accept the risk that what you post may or may not be responded to exactly how you want it to.

You can't blame strangers on the internet for not knowing exactly what you need or want to hear.

My point is, some of the responsibility needs to lie with the OP. They need to know that if they're feeling vulnerable or in a bad way, there are better places for unwavering and qualified support than here. If they choose to pick Mumsnet as the place to post for support anyway, then that's great, but they are then accepting that they might not get 100% what they are looking for or even need.

I rarely comment on these threads because it often seems to be the same faces whining about how MN isn't working like they want it to work.

Guess what? MN isn't compulsory. Any time investment you make is purely voluntary. MN doesn't OWE anyone anything.

Suicide threads: I don't like them. Lock them and direct posters to Samaritans or a specialist suicide support forum if there is such a thing. MN collectively is not responsible for individual members. I felt very sorry for Wombat but her thread was very upsetting for lots of people. Her distress was very real but lots of people felt frightened for her and powerless to help. I would imagine a lot of the people on her thread went to bed anxious and upset that night.

Trolls: If you suspect, report it. If your troll radar is sounding red alert maybe comment 'Reported' (even though I know this sends some people crazy).

Namechangers are not inherently evil. I name change all the time because I've identified a couple of people from RL because their posting history was too long. I like my privacy and in fact I'm due a name change. Not so I can troll but just because I don't want to be identifiable in real life. Which is fair enough really.

I haven't read each and every post but there is as can be expected a wide range of opinion on this tricky issue. The saying "a camel is a horse designed by a committee springs to mind, though I am of course in favour of democracy and support MNHQ's request for the opinions of users of the MH threads.

In my view (for what it's worth) there may not be such a dividing line between a troll and a non-troll - I remember someone posting a couple of months ago, saying on what date she was going to end her life. Someone PMed her and she came on "huffing and puffing" about how she didn't need to be told her children needed her and she was signing off. Maybe I'm just an old cynic but I thought that was her way out, as she might have felt silly posting after the specified date (as she had been very definite) Lots of people were worried and imagining all sorts of things, and of course we'll never know, but that's not a bad thing.

Also I think some posters are being unfair about MNHQ's attempts to sort this matter out, and talking of "trolls winning." They appear to be doing their best and think that the right course of action now is for them to make a decision as the "debate" could go on and on...........Also as someone pointed out MN is NOT compulsory - neither are the MH threads - there is an option to stay away from them, or stop reading something that you find too distressing, or triggering.

I have been around for years, but mostly lurking in the shadows. I have learnt lots from just reading without needing to add my opinion, especially when others have frequently expressed similar thoughts much more coherently. My feeling is that threads where the poster is expressing suicidal thoughts should not be allowed to run. As many people have said, there are other places with professional back up for people in this type of distress. I am not completely clear, though, on how we would expect MNHQ or the lovely night watchers to judge whether or not a poster is demonstrating active suicidal ideation. Unless they get some sort of mental health training or can contact a mental health professional for advice

The obvious solution is to close the site down when MNHQ goes to bed.

It's all very well saying to lock the thread and post a link to Samaritans, but I've yet to meet anyone with MH issues that hasn't already heard of them. It's not helpful, and being shut down in that way isn't on.

What CAN help is being able to talk through stuff and make a connection with people out there. MNers know that they can come here and get objective advice, thoughts and support. This is not a bad thing.

If you've not been in the position of feeling utterly desperate, then I wonder how you can say what is and isn't helpful for those who have. People don't have to respond to threads. You can hide them. It's not hard.

The mental health topic has plenty of people on it who are really struggling. I don't believe that a single one of them views MN as an alternative to RL or as owing them a duty of care, or sees the site as a bastion of perfect advice. They're absolutely no different to anyone posting in relationships or even style and beauty FFS. (I say this as a wearer of mum boots and boot cut jeans). They just want to be able to connect with folks and maybe get a bit of support or advice.

All of this to do is just not helpful.

I thnk a joining date attached to posting names would be a good idea.
I understand the objection - that newbies would be seen as less important than regulars but I don't agree.
Firstly long standing members are not treated with kid gloves or especially well regarded. I have been here donkeys years and I get abused because of that. Regular/ long standing member/ regular posters/ royalty are all used more often as insults than anything else.

And amidst all the angst about the trolls who turn up and draw people in who may or may not be long standing members, the problem is massively worsened by the endless, dreary, cynical " I am a long standing poster ( naice ham, river of pooh, penis beaker) and I just shat myself in the middle of the royal opera house"

If they are a long standing poster then mnhq will know who they are. If they have deliberately made a new identity to post that then maybe poster won't be taking cabs to the ROH with clean underwear to save them.

I know the possibility of a poster arriving as a genuine newbie with an extraordinary yet genuine problem exists but I think that is actually rare and if we make trolling a bit less easy perhaps the urge to do a csi dissection of every post will diminish.

Something InfinitySeven posted made me think. If someone in deep trouble has their thread deleted and giving details of real life help that can cause more upset. Some people use MN because they need to get out something that is causing them pain but aren't ready, or able, to ask for real life help. Telling MN makes it real enough to ask for help and maybe get enough to cope, but telling someone in real life can be a step too far for so many reasons.

MN isn't just a chat forum to some people. It can be a life line for those with no family close, or at all, for those without friends, for those that need advice and support or even just what to feed the kids with ABC in the cupboard but don't have a cookery book. Just because it might be a bit of fun for you and something you aren't fussed about doesn't make it right to sound like you are sneering when discussing that it is just a chat forum in your mind.

Next year I am hoping to have something big in my life resolved and would want to discuss it on here but I just know I would get called troll. I would have to name change so that it isn't linked to my other stuff posted which immediately would set off bells but I would want to use my name as well so that people know it is me, as there are a few posters who have chatted to me over the years I have been on here so they recognise my name and know stuff about my life.

I had some really great posts when I posted about wanting to die, as well as some horrible here we go again, get help, sick of reading about you posts and it can easily tip you over the edge to actually killing yourself when you are hurt.

Of course no one on here is responsible for anyone else and it would be hard to argue it was a poster's fault if someone did kill themselves, but the fact remains that this is a real issue and people will always post on here needing serious and genuine help, advice, support, kindness regardless of some saying it is just a chat forum.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine.s post about getting a Samaritan to privately help is brilliant and I can not think of a good reason not to follow up and implement the suggestion. Inspired.

I posted and ran earlier because I had to go out but I so agree with pps saying that MN can't be held responsible for the health and wellbeing of each and every user. We are supposed to be adults fgs and if yu've got the stage where you're telling an admin to fuck off you probably need to step away and maybe start up your own highly successful website that will never make any mistakes of course and never piss off a user. Newsflash, it's probably quite difficult to run a website for millions of people who disagree with eacg other all the time, never mind disagreeing with MNHQ.

Mumsnet at it's very best is a wonderful, safe place for support. But I don't think it's the right place to support anyone actively contemplating suicide.

I would support some kind of thread count though. I name change from time to time when posting personal issues, and I dread being accused of trolling. To be honest I have held back from seeking advice because of this, and I suspect that I may not be alone in this.

What I would really like is some honesty. Troll hunting is bullying and it is really unedifying to read posts from people who are kicking vulnerable people when they are down. Do they get banned? Or are they just " reminded" of the talk guidelines?