OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

Will do rowan thanks x

You don't owe anybody any explanations - look after yourself and get better

If nasty trolls were obvious it would be easy/easier to avoid them and not feed them - of course people inadvertently feed trolls because they believe them. Even or particularly most emotionally vampiric and nasty trolls are often very plausible and put a lot of time and effort in their posts

Maybe MN should have a huge flashing banner at the top or a ticker that reads "Do not give any more than you can afford to loose" or something.

'Troll hunting' can be anything from an IMO perfectly legitimate request to clarify something to bullying and stalking of a poster across different threads which is of course also very upsetting.

Post nice.
Report suspicious stuff.
Only post what you can afford to loose - effort, time, emotions, painful memories (well, we'd all like to loose them, but you know what I mean hopefully), contact details, money, goods.

It should really be quite simple… in theory.

I agree with Pacific about only posting what you can afford to lose. We all have to take responsibility for protecting ourselves to some extent, with reporting as a back up. It isn't realistic on a popular forum for every poster to come with some kind of 'certificate of authenticity', and attempting to move towards that could end up being restrictive and damaging.

If you think someone is a troll, and are actually concerned about that rather than just looking for a fight, reporting is subtle and probably more effective than making guesses and encouraging others to jump on a bandwagon.

My worry is if there was a way to make a forum totally 'safe' for everybody in every set of circumstances, there'd be hardly anything left for anybody to post on (have you seen how het up things can get on Baby Names?! )

Lowest common denominator as a standard - no thanks.

There's no use telling people 'they have to be responsible for their own actions' when by dint of the severity of their illness, those posting suicidal ideation and intent may NOT be in full control of their actions. Not in terms of what we deem psychologically competent to be in charge of their own lives. At least not until they are in the care of MH services.

Haven't read all the thread, and I'm sure somebody will have asked already, but why can't Mumsnet put "member since ...." or "number of posts" like you see on other forums and have it attached to the user whether they namechange or not?

But that's why LilAnnie such threads should be locked.

Lil, I agree with you, but I think that the posters responding to a v vulnerable OP need to take responsibility if/what they post.

People have asked Seasalt but MNHQ haven't responded.

The damage to users of this site and the subsequent repercussions to both site and users of allowing/leaving live suicide threads will be devastating when, as will happen, one does end with the death of the person posting. I am staggered that MNHQ would even contemplate letting this happen.

As others have so eloquently said, users of this site are not trained for this kind of event, and most people are not emotionally capable of dealing with either the event or the inevitable ramifications.

These are extreme and rare incidents and, in my opinion, extreme and rare measures should be implemented. My suggestions are

MNHQ to make it a condition of using the site that it is not used for live action suicide attempts or the posting of suicide notes.

If a user does post a suicide note and graphic details of the process of their suicide, site users who open the thread are to report immediately without making any comment on the thread, thus the thread would not stay in Active Conversations for long, alternatively MNHQ may be able to put in place a system whereby the use of certain words or phrases in an OP trigger an alert that requires them to immediately look at a thread and close it before others have a chance to read or post on it. The latter may not be practical and may go against the ethos of the site.

The thread should be closed immediately and a message sent to the poster detailing why and providing details of where the poster should go to seek professional help.

A deletion message on the board to state that the thread has been deleted for breaking Terms and Conditions number whatever, the poster has been advised of where to seek help and no further threads discussing either the contents or the poster are allowed.

Lil, yes I also meant people responding to threads, all threads.

Well said emotionsecho. As said above I think it's time for MNHQ to 'person up' and make a decision on this.

How can it be a reasonable position to let suicide threads stand? Someone compared them to live birth threads earlier in this thread and live DV threads.

They aren't comparable, certainly not live birth threads.

@seasalt

Haven't read all the thread, and I'm sure somebody will have asked already, but why can't Mumsnet put "member since ...." or "number of posts" like you see on other forums and have it attached to the user whether they namechange or not?

@LittleBearPad

People have asked Seasalt but MNHQ haven't responded.

No we did respond (although we appreciate the thread is pretty unwieldy and very long). Right now we're in listening mode not decision-taking mode but mode-switching and personning up with extreme prejudice will be happening next week.

A bit tired of being consistently named as a troll hunter.

I don't think I have called troll on any specific thread in years, not since the report and hide guidelines, or even asked pointed questions. I obey the rules.

What I do do is go on threads outside of the thread in question. I don't name people unless mnhq have; if you find any discussions you will find the original thread is almost always proven to be suspect. I thought Site Stuff was there for this type of conversation, but it seems to be just a place for posters to chuck insults at "regulars"

Yet every time one of these threads comes up I suddenly become TrollHunterExtraordinaire . And accused of delighting in catching people out.

I wish I never saw a troll; I wish people who needed support got it instead of being ignored in favour of dramatic exaggerated or even entirely fictitious threads that go on and on.

This thread reminds me of the PenAndInk days. And for those who don't know he was a troll, as were his friends. I didn't hunt him - he told us all about it.

But that is actually irrelevant.

My one point on this thread, if mnhq listen to one, is asking for support is different from posting a goodbye thread

This thread makes me sad, and I can't read through all of it because it's upsetting, not just because we're talking about the end of life in distress, but also because everyone feels very passionately, and rightly so on such an emotive subject.

It's a bit of a half-baked idea, but how about a password-protected extra section in chat that didn't show up in most active etc for threads such as these? I hate to think of someone in their last hours wanting some company instead of ending their life alone, and their thread being locked / deleted- which just looks like we don't care? It can also be argued that the removal of threads such as these for the comfort of everyone else aren't dealing with the person who needs comfort the most? I know 'goodbye' posts are distressing to read, but what you're feeling when you read one can't even come close to how the OP must feel.

I have volunteered for Samaritans, and policy was never to leave someone to die alone if you could help it. Additionally, we shouldn't be there to take their choice away from them. Everyone has the right to decide how they live and die, and if they've made up their mind to die and don't want to be alone in their final moments, then who are we to deprive them of that? For example, what if the person is a long-term poster, who has very few RL friends to count on, and feels close enough to open their heart to MN- would you want that person to post a goodbye note and have it deleted? MN, as the place for their solace would be leaving them out in the cold, imho.

While the posts can be triggering we were always taught that you can't put the idea of suicide into someone's head...it will have been there already. Those who are vulnerable can stay away from the 'private boards', and those who want to offer some support, can.

Would putting an extra password barrier also sort out some of the trolling? Probably, as these posts won't get so much traffic?

Sorry if some of this has already been covered, I just can't bear to read the whole thread RTFT I know

It's easy to cry troll hunter after the thread is deleted.

unless I am mistaken ScaryZ, always possible on a friday afternoon, no-one on this thread has named anyone else as a troll hunter, the only named THs are the ones naming themselves - so I'm really as to why you would say this "Yet every time one of these threads comes up I suddenly become TrollHunterExtraordinaire . And accused of delighting in catching people out." - who named you and accuses you of that?

PacificDogwood has it nailed IMO
"Post nice.
Report suspicious stuff.
Only post what you can afford to loose - effort, time, emotions, painful memories (well, we'd all like to loose them, but you know what I mean hopefully), contact details, money, goods."
and IMO "post nice" = obey the guidelines - ALL of them not just the ones you agree with.

Dingle, the post naming Maryz was deleted. You came to the thread after that

ok thanks Just I stand corrected, has someone named you then ScaryZ if so I apologise - I certainly haven't seen that.

Lemon

Few posters have had your training and are emotionally I'll-equipped to deal with that scenario.

I don't see how a 'protected area' would help as the poster would probably still post in chat for 'traffic' anyway.

I honestly think that the trolls will only win if people troll-hunt on a thread instead of reporting and staying away.

Rowan, when you lock this thread for the weekend can you also ask that no other threads on this subject are started?

Yes, Zombie does believe in unicorns.

"everyone has the right to decide how they live and die, and if they've made up their mind to die and don't want to be alone in their final moments, then who are we to deprive them of that?" so you actually think that mn should go so far as having live suicide threads? How far do you think that mn should take this? the ability for op to talk about how they want to kill themselves? perhaps a link to a live video stream where users can watch them do it and "be there" while they die? y'know, just so as they don't have to die alone?

It's all very well to say that only those who wouldn't be triggered should go on to a suicide thread, but reality is that you don't always know that it's a suicide thread until you've opened it, and once you've seen it, there's no way to unsee it. and it is naïve in the extreme to think that only sympathetic people go on to these threads. reality is that most people who keep going back for updates are just voyeuristic, and it's just virtual entertainment. Yes that's an unpalatable thought but it's true. Just look at how many people stop at the scene of an accident, or if someone is threatening to jump off a bridge/building. They're not stopping there so as to be there for that person in their hour of need, they're stopping to see if they actually go through with it.

Nice to know that mn are stifling discussion over the weekend. Presumably they hope that by next week posters will have forgotten about it and moved on. Assuming someone doesn't start a spin-off thread or two....

As has been said many times before, the ease of name-changing is probably the main reason that MN has such an abundance of trolls. If MNHQ really want to reduce the problem of trolling, they would have to disable that function. I've had a few nicknames over the years, though I've used this one for the longest. I find it convenient to be able to change names occasionally. But in the conflict between user convenience and the harmful consequences of rampant trolling, I'd use all my ammunition to fight the latter before protecting the former, if you'll excuse the military metaphors.

Unfortunately, it can be very difficult to prove someone is a troll, except in the most blatant situations of sock-puppeting, etc. With the best will in the world, even when MNHQ claim they have no reason to doubt a poster's authenticity, they can't actually know one way or the other. They can say that someone has a consistent posting history and has been a member for X number of years. But that really doesn't mean anything. A long-term troll could very easily build up that sort of history, as many people on this thread have pointed out.

I don't really see a major problem with troll-hunting on MN. Occasionally a poster may be hounded or even tracked down IRL, and that sort of behaviour is entirely beyond the pale. But IME it happens rarely. Trolling, on the other hand, happens daily. And there still isn't a mechanism in place to cope adequately with trolls. I don't suppose it is possible to eliminate trolling altogether. But the current system doesn't work terribly well IMO.

As for the threads about imminent suicide, they should be deleted immediately IMO (as I posted above). MN shouldn't pretend to be something it is not. It would be very dangerous to allow such threads. Delete them and then PM and/or email the OP with relevant resources. That is the best MN can do.