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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
MiddletonPink · 24/10/2014 15:23

It feels wrong that someone in such a desperate state as Wombat has had to keep justifying herself.

Imo the troll hunters have a sense of self importance. They are not happy to report a thread they are suspicious of but have to drop not so subtle hints like " are you new to MN? " so this then attracts all the other self important sorts to have a go.

Then the shit hits the fan.

Just report. Don't start pm'ing posters with your views. Just leave it.

If it is a troll and all those suspicious report it HQ will do their digging, said troll will be banned. No hoody ha needed.

You're not here to save MN.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 15:28

@WannaBe

Nice to know that mn are stifling discussion over the weekend. Presumably they hope that by next week posters will have forgotten about it and moved on.

Crikey. That's quite an accusation.

We said we'd close the thread a) because it was suggested by and agreed to by a few posters on here, many of whom thought this was dragging on for too long; and b) because we won't be able to monitor it closely over the weekend and we don't want it to become a bunfight.

OP posts:
LemonDrizzleTwunt · 24/10/2014 15:35

WannaBe I'm sorry if I offended, but I think your response was a bit snide. You obviously don't think I'm advocating a live suicide feed, surely? I just can't imagine anyone wanting to die alone, scared and broken, especially if these people have come to MN for support.

My argument about the password protection is that nobody would stumble across any threads relating to suicide, without being made aware of what they were already. And, maybe I am naive, but I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and I do think a lot of those stopping by aren't rubber-necking, they're empathising with the OP. I certainly am.

Goodboy I totally see where you're coming from, and sorry, I didn't address the troll-hunting. I completely agree with you- the report button is definitely underused as far as I'm concerned! Why get into an argument with someone you think is lying? They'll stoop a lot lower than you will, so it's unlikely you'll be able to win with any grace. These people obviously don't have morals, so it's not like you'll be teaching them a lesson.

As to your point about not everyone having Samaritans training, I do understand, but feel that what most people want is what most people can provide- a friendly, calm, empathetic ear. I'm not for a moment suggesting we all need training (!) but all you have to do is listen really. Posters such as these often fear they're not valued or believed, and so by simply being there you can change how that. I do also think that if these threads were on a private board, those who didn't feel able to offer support wouldn't visit.

SquattingNeville · 24/10/2014 15:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JustScreamNobHurts · 24/10/2014 15:44

Right, there is an awful lot of psychological analysis of troll hunters as fucking awful people.

Do you think you could perhaps remember that unlike discussing trolls you are talking about other posters. And more than once on several threads have referred to posters as troll hunters, incorrectly.

Please?

No discussion at all can be had with that kind of attitude. I report troll hunting, and trolls. I never accuse either on a thread. But I may bloody well start .....

MiddletonPink · 24/10/2014 15:51

Give over JustScream.

Nobody forces them to accuse and insinuate do they? They do it of their own back.

If they just reported then hid the thread instead of staying on it just to shit stir there would be no cause for anyone to call them anything would there?

TheBogQueen · 24/10/2014 15:53

I think it would be misguided to facilitate peer support via mumsnet posters for people threatening suicide or in the process of ending their life.

GoodboyBindleFeatherstone · 24/10/2014 15:53

Lemon

Unfortunately I clicked on a "suicide thread" not realising what it was based on the thread title. If I had 'listened' and 'supported' and that poster had then committed suicide I would NOT be able to cope. Had that thread been where it possibly should have been (ie Mental Health) I wouldn't even have opened it, but it was in "Chat"! It's all very well saying have somewhere separate, but people post where they'll get the responses the want.

wooooosualsuspect · 24/10/2014 15:56

The trolls must be laughing their heads off at the troll hunter hunters...

LemonDrizzleTwunt · 24/10/2014 15:56

Point taken, goodboy. I suppose there's no way to police that, only after it's happened. I also accept your point about not being able to cope. It's not fair to ask someone to do that who hasn't willingly entered into it, and may not have RL support of their own to deal with how they feel about the whole thing.

LittleBearPad · 24/10/2014 15:59

It's a good plan to lock the thread. If MNHQ aren't here to respond nothing can progress anyway

MiddletonPink · 24/10/2014 16:04

Usual if people didn't respond to a ' highly suspicious thread ' we all know the sort and just reported it then the trolls wouldn't get the attention ( whether it's from well meaning people or troll hunters ) the thread wouldn't take off, HQ would be alerted to it and zap it if necessary.

We should all give it a go and see what happens.

Doyouthinktheysaurus · 24/10/2014 16:06

Lemon imo, the idea of supporting people so they don't die alone is a truly horrific suggestion.

This is a public forum, it's so voyeuristic, it's just awful.

The Samaritans may have different policies, but their interactions with people are private and the volunteers have training and support. I absolutely take my hat off to the volunteers who can work within those parameters of not intervening because I know I couldn't and I've been working with people with severe mental health problems for years.

wooooosualsuspect · 24/10/2014 16:09

Nothing will happen.

The trolls will still troll. Reporters will still get 'everything checks out our end' Emails in reply.

And this conversation will be had again in a few months time.

PacificDogwood · 24/10/2014 16:10

I agree, the situation here is much more public than one Samaritan on the phone to a suicidal person.

The more I think about it, I agree with everybody who suggested to come up with a policy, having taken advice re best practice from the relevant bodies and then sticking to it religiously.

We don't ALL have to like it and it may or may not be the best solution for all possible imaginable scenarios, but that would just be impossible.

I think this thread ought to be locked - it's getting a bit bunfighty.

MiddletonPink · 24/10/2014 16:12

If they get no replies this won't carry on.

They can only carry on with interaction.

LemonDrizzleTwunt · 24/10/2014 16:13

Hi Doyouthinktheysaurus I'm sorry you think it's horrific; can you expand? Is that it is on a public forum? If so, I totally get it, and happen to agree with you, but that is the method that the OP chose to make contact, and whilst we can do all sorts of encouraging to seek the proper help, we can't make them pick up the phone to the relevant helpline.

I think I am going to go now, as I can see I am pretty much the only one who feels this way, and I think that this should be a decision for MNHQ and the majority; particularly those who have been here longer than me and remember more of the trolling / trollhunting. I don't want to muddy the waters any further or cause any upset.

LittleBearPad · 24/10/2014 16:13

It's a bit of a half-baked idea, but how about a password-protected extra section in chat that didn't show up in most active etc for threads such as these? I hate to think of someone in their last hours wanting some company instead of ending their life alone, and their thread being locked / deleted- which just looks like we don't care? It can also be argued that the removal of threads such as these for the comfort of everyone else aren't dealing with the person who needs comfort the most? I know 'goodbye' posts are distressing to read, but what you're feeling when you read one can't even come close to how the OP must feel.

I have volunteered for Samaritans, and policy was never to leave someone to die alone if you could help it. Additionally, we shouldn't be there to take their choice away from them. Everyone has the right to decide how they live and die, and if they've made up their mind to die and don't want to be alone in their final moments, then who are we to deprive them of that? For example, what if the person is a long-term poster, who has very few RL friends to count on, and feels close enough to open their heart to MN- would you want that person to post a goodbye note and have it deleted? MN, as the place for their solace would be leaving them out in the cold, imho

Seriously! MN is not the Samaritans. It has neither the expertise or the resources to set itself up as a support network for people planning to kill themselves. It cannot be everything for everyone

PuddingandPie1 · 24/10/2014 16:22

I agree - nothing will happen: mainly there isn't much that can be done.

The trolls will still troll - and will sometimes get booted off the site.
The troll-hunters will still hunt (with variable degrees of subtlety) - and will probably not get booted off the site.
The sock puppets will still be around - blindingly obvious in some cases.

And three months from now the site will still be facing exactly the same problems that all open access forums face.

Itsfab · 24/10/2014 16:26

MNHQ have been asking for years for people not to post troll comments on threads. People still do it. Why do they? I think even posting "reported" is against the rules or should be as it does the same thing.

Doyouthinktheysaurus · 24/10/2014 16:30

Please don't feel you have to leave the thread Lemon. I just feel that while your intentions are good, the idea is extremely misguided.

Yes, it's inappropriate use of a public forum for sure and completely open to exploitation. But mostly, it's not fair on the users of the site.

As I said I've worked in mental health for many years and I carry the emotional scars from working with actively suicidal people and dealing with the reality of successful suicide. I have access to clinical supervision and peer support but the reality of knowing i couldn't save someone will haunt me forever, even though in all honesty I could not have done any more. It just isn't something that ever leaves you, I'm sure other my professionals would echo that.

That's the impact on me with training and years of experience behind me. The impact on lay people without that training and experience could be untold damage.

temporaryusername · 24/10/2014 16:39

Threads about suicide are the most extreme example of a site-wide issue.

Many of the other issues - relationships, general health and pretty much all topics really - involve advice over decisions that are important. What if someone gives the wrong advice there and causes a major problem for the OP? What is someone finds the details on the thread triggering?

Obviously there is a big difference in the case of posters expressing immediate suicidal intent. I just think that some posts on this thread are dividing MN into 'chat' versus 'mental health' when really many of the topics are serious and delicate. It comes across as prejudice.

JustScreamNobHurts · 24/10/2014 16:39

No, I won't give over. How utterly condescending .... Read Daisy's post, she's now worried that troll hunter, name and shamers may put her on some sort of shit list.

MrsLettuce · 24/10/2014 16:44

FFS. Life is triggering.

temporaryusername · 24/10/2014 16:46

That's what I meant Mrs L, it is inevitable, it isn't just MH threads.