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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
MiddletonPink · 24/10/2014 08:56

There are trolls of course there are. Some extremely vile one.

But coming on a thread just to say in a very vague manner that you think the OP is a troll just stirs trouble.

If you think something isn't right report then hide.

Instead of getting all high and mighty.

TheOrchardKeeper · 24/10/2014 09:10

What can be a 'I'm feeling very low' thread can slip into a 'I'm feeling so low, that I want this to end and I dont know the best way for it to end' thread

This is what happened to me/on my thread. And I've seen it elsewhere but the support I/they got was invaluble. I hope MNHQ don't count those as 'live suicide threads' Sad

JustScreamNobHurts · 24/10/2014 09:37

I have a huge issue with this image Mumsnet have created of troll hunters.

Now people are saying they are over invested vigilante terrible people and then NAMING other posters as troll hunters.

It's a convenient way of abusing another poster, after all the thread has been deleted.

Mumsnet prides itself on operating differently to other sites, Justine's not in favour or removing anonymity like other sites are and has said so in the media.

She's also said that many Mnet uses meet up so if the site owner is not against this than I don't see why it should be commented on as a bad thing -unless you call it Tinder for Mums Grin

ATombWithoutAFoof · 24/10/2014 09:41

Sangria, if that was directed at me, I don't condone trolling at all, and I don't know why'd get that from my post. It just doesn't make sense to me why people actively engage them, when there's a way to report them.

SplatTheScaryCat · 24/10/2014 09:43

it matters if the OP is a troll if people are pming said troll with phonenumbers, emails addresses and sometimes even real home addresses.. and even in a couple of extreme cases, jumping in cars to go meet someone.

it matters because its putting other posters in danger.

people need to ALL be aware that a poster may not genuine and they really, really, REALLY shouldn't be pming personal info to ANYONE on this forum.

if the posts are locked/moved/deleted then it prevents not only those gullible/kindly souls from being taken advantage of and put at risk of their information being used for nefarious purposes, but also defends the vulnerable readers.

SplatTheScaryCat · 24/10/2014 09:45

my original post on site stuff that got deleted and started all this bullshit off, was just about THAT.

protecting vulnerable posters by either locking or moving a thread or being able for us or MNHQ to post a warning on them saying 'this might not be genuine, please be careful and dont share your personal info'

that is ALL.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 09:45

Morning everyone and thanks v much for your additions overnight

@OhYouBadBadKitten

Mn can be a hugely supportive place and I dont want it to become the sort of place where we can only talk about happy things - but sad times come on a sliding scale - when do we pull the plug and say this is beyond the capability of mn to help and support?

Yes - this would indeed be the extremely tricky bit if that's the route we end up going down.

FYI all, we're hoping to sit down and look at all this early next week (some key people are out of the office today) and take a proper decision then. We're going to close this thread over the weekend as we know some people are finding the discussion a bit distressing (or irritating Grin) and we won't be able to monitor it closely over the w/e, so if you have things to add please jump in soonish.

OP posts:
JustScreamNobHurts · 24/10/2014 09:48

Thank god it'll be closed over the weekend. Don't leave it unsupervised again.

Wow, I never thought I'd say that to Rowan. I like unsupervised, unsupervised is fun. Especially with trolly man journalists who slag off mumsnet Grin

ATombWithoutAFoof · 24/10/2014 09:55

Just thought I should clarify, I'm not supporting trolling. If we adhere to the talk guidelines and don't over share or invest more than we can, then surely we are taking some responsibility for protecting ourselves.

Surely all forums [fora?] have trolls, if we want a light touch with moderation in other areas regarding language, subject matter etc, then surely the pay off of that is that there's not going to be an army of mods stamping all over every slightly suspect thread. That's certainly the way I like it.

My thoughts are we should act as one body, don't engage with posters you think are dodgy, and report.

YesIDidMeanToBeSoWoooooooode · 24/10/2014 09:58

It's pretty simple to me.

Lock anything referencing methods or announcing suicide plans. MNHQ post locking message signposting RL support and explaining why it has been locked. Anything else left to stand.

Same levels of moderation BUT 24/7 so posts can be locked or pulled any time. Night watch isn't enough in this day and age.

However I strongly believe one of the distinguishing and beneficial aspects to MNHQ is the self/light moderation and this should continue. We already have a system whereby people can report trolls/suspicion and as long as this didn't stop overnight, I do not feel it needs to change.

If people felt their reports/suspicions were acted on and HQ always available, they would not feel the need to troll hunt. Unless of course, they are posting publicly to show how aware and clever they are and bestowing their superior troll hunting skills on the poor gullible folk.

We are all adults using this site of our free will and have to take responsibility for ourselves. This is always mentioned by MNHQ anyway, don't give more of yourself than you can afford. Posters shouldn't need other posters to protect them, we should be protecting ourselves. There will always be trolls, just as there are in real life, we meet people pretending to be someone they are not and we should all be able to develop skills to look after ourselves.

MrsVamoOOOOOOOOOOs · 24/10/2014 09:59

Glad its being locked over the w/end.

I don't want to see MN changing too much, clearly ALL forums are valuable and offer/provide support to everyone who comes here, whether that be to just have a giggle or for far more serious issues we face in 'real' life.

I guess the tricky thing is working out the best way forward. Don't envy HQ Smile

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 09:59

@magimedi

Could MNHQ answer a question about the Night Watch, please?

What time do they take over & if you see a dodgy post, be it trolling, spamming or whatever, do you press the report button on the post or do you have to go to the Night Watch thread to report it?

Thanks.

We like to keep handover hours on the downlow magimedi cos otherwise it's like hanging an 'Open for business' sign up for trouble-makers. MNHQ (ie not Nightwatchers) are around seven days a week, from very early until very late, all the year round - we are NOT a Monday-Friday 9-5 operation. (Just wanted to reiterate that as it's come up a few times!)

But yes, for the Nightwatch, please either report as normal, or put a (neutrally phrased - 'would you mind taking a look here please?') post (with a link to the relevant post or thread) in the Nightwatch topic.

NWers get an alert when a thread, post or posters is reported a certain number of times, so if there's something causing a big ruckus and they're online they will be aware.

But in all of this please remember that they're under strict instructions not to make judgement calls or get involved in shades-of-grey situations or common-or-garden bunfights. We've asked them to hide things that are really egregious, or annoying obvious spam. We review everything they've done when we get in the next morning.

We may well add guidelines for them about suicide threads, but for now that's all we ask them to do. And they're volunteers and doing it out of the kindness of their hearts so please be nice (we're sure you would anyway).

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 10:06

@JustScreamNobHurts

Thank god it'll be closed over the weekend. Don't leave it unsupervised again.

Wow, I never thought I'd say that to Rowan. I like unsupervised, unsupervised is fun. Especially with trolly man journalists who slag off mumsnet Grin

Oh heck, is there one of those around? was so hoping for a quiet weekend

OP posts:
magimedi · 24/10/2014 10:08

Thanks for that, Rowan.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 10:15

@WannaBe

"I'd be inclined to trust MNHQ on what feeds trolls. They are up to date with how forums like this work, they exchange best practice with the HQs of other similar forums, they know the latest research. Facts and all that." riiight. So that's why mn is pretty much the only site where suicide note style threads are allowed to stand then? (Confused) that's why they're only now seeking guidance on this even though posters have been calling for this to be changed for years? (Hmm)

Don't think this is fair tbh WannaBe. You're quite right that we've had this discussion before, but the users' consensus was broadly to leave things as they were. (With the exception of moving threads to MH which we have been remiss on.)

As someone else said (sorry, can't remember who!) one consequence of us usually doing our best to run big decisions past users is that we cannot satisfy everyone. But the fact that we did not do what a particular group of users wanted is not the same as doing nothing.

Apols for defensiveness Grin

OP posts:
JustScreamNobHurts · 24/10/2014 10:16

No. I broke Tom last time, he won't come back.

Obviously I broke him within the guidelines and some off board shenanigans because I know people who know people but they don't count

JustScreamNobHurts · 24/10/2014 10:17

I wonder if the Balonz folk will be back? That would be nice.

SpanielofDoom · 24/10/2014 10:19

Nob "Especially with trolly man journalists who slag off mumsnet"

You're surely not suggesting that MN has been infiltrated by that type again just lately are you? Grin

They, TMJs, seem to particularly enjoy Relationships...several threads that have started "first post here, I've been reading around for a few weeks and think I can get some good advice about my wife"

Several posts later, TMJ : "I knew this would happen, I've never seen such nastiness, you're all so bitter, MN is so sexist and full of man hating women."

(am I troll hunting?)

Dinglethdragon · 24/10/2014 10:26

Totally agree yesIdid I'm an adult who can decide for herself how much I invest in a thread - I don't need protecting by self appointed warriors thanks.

It really is very simple. Troll hinting on thread breaks guidelines in exactly the same way it would if I spotted my exH on here and called him a narcissistic self centred bully. Doesn't matter HOW true it is - that is no defence - personal attacks are against guidelines just as troll hunting on thread is. I could argue that by naming and shaming him I was protecting the vulnerable from falling for him - but do you know what they would rally to his defence as he is clearly so lovely. Calling troll on thread doesn't even work to protect the vulnerable as the most vulnerable buy into the story easily and will defend the troll against your attacking. Report, back away, and let HQ deal with it.

PuddingandPie1 · 24/10/2014 10:48

Mumsnet seems to have a rule about (not) troll hunting. Some people here clearly do not agree with the rule but they remain sufficiently community spirited to follow it anyway. A small number of posters, some of whom are quite high-profile, ignore the rule again and again and if I was in charge they would be asked to leave.

BlueAndWhiteTeapot · 24/10/2014 10:56

YesIDidMean... wrote:

"It's pretty simple to me.

Lock anything referencing methods or announcing suicide plans. MNHQ post locking message signposting RL support and explaining why it has been locked. Anything else left to stand.

Same levels of moderation BUT 24/7 so posts can be locked or pulled any time. Night watch isn't enough in this day and age.

However I strongly believe one of the distinguishing and beneficial aspects to MNHQ is the self/light moderation and this should continue. We already have a system whereby people can report trolls/suspicion and as long as this didn't stop overnight, I do not feel it needs to change.

If people felt their reports/suspicions were acted on and HQ always available, they would not feel the need to troll hunt. Unless of course, they are posting publicly to show how aware and clever they are and bestowing their superior troll hunting skills on the poor gullible folk.

We are all adults using this site of our free will and have to take responsibility for ourselves. This is always mentioned by MNHQ anyway, don't give more of yourself than you can afford. Posters shouldn't need other posters to protect them, we should be protecting ourselves. There will always be trolls, just as there are in real life, we meet people pretending to be someone they are not and we should all be able to develop skills to look after ourselves."

I really like this.

I am one of the lurkers referenced by ScaryMaryZ and others above. I don't post often and have used a number of different names over the last few years.

I often read without being logged in. For me, getting into lots of discussion here would actually be giving more mental energy and time than I can afford. For this reason, I do not report as often as I should.

However, I have taken part in a range of discussions and helped people with advice and support where I have felt able and qualified to do so. I have also reported where I felt others might be taken in on the "Three pence a week and a tin of beans to feed six children for the next week" type of thread, not mentioning this on thread but giving advice to the OP about where she might be able to get food. It took five minutes of my time.

(Interestingly, unless I have been looking in the wrong places, there seem to be far fewer of those threads about than this time last year.)

I do feel part of the site and I have learnt a lot from being here on all sorts of different threads. Although I can often spot if a thread doesn't hang together, or someone posts something like "it's been a dreadful year, although I haven't complained on Mumsnet, but...." just before the Christmas appeal is announced, I take the majority of threads on trust. I have no idea whether or not they are true. For most threads, light-hearted banter or straightforward advice, it doesn't actually matter.

I do not like sneaky advertising, trying to get financial help or goods in an underhand way, meanness, snide remarks or nit picking. I am deeply concerned about suicide notes and agree with "lock and post MH resources" but think that "I am feeling suicidal, please can I talk to someone" messages should most definitely be allowed. I hate bereavement trolling.

I think MNHQ do a fantastic job with humour, tact and respect. I think there should be 24/7 light moderation with people paid around the clock, all moderating to the same standard (as much as possible!).

Worryingwombat · 24/10/2014 11:00

Morning all

I still have my morning rituals of checking the news and mumsnet yet I feel this is hanging over me every time

I feel like I want to explain things yet want to remain non triggering so will keep things short and to the point

I was abused sexually as a child from age 6 till 15 I never told anyone I had the impression a family member knew and was paid for me been involved in these acts yet nothing was ever said

2 years ago this family member died I felt like I had been kicked in the stomach the memories came thick and fast

I attempted suicide and was admitted voluntarily to a mental health unit I had counciling and carried on

Last week was my birthday I also saw an epileptic specialist who believe some of my seizure are a non epileptic dissociative disorder meaning some the the memories I have are so shocking so traumatic that my brain actually shuts off

This scares me as the ones I do remember are bad enough what did that bastard do that I won't let myself remember

Instead of seeking help like the Samaritans I posted on here at my lowest time I place I see as home as my relaxing place

I was wrong I upset many but that night received many lovely messages of support it was not till 2 days ago when trying to come on mumsnet agin I saw I was locked out and came across a thread where a poster asked about me and was been told I was a troll that I was vile and horrible

I have gone on since then to clear my name I provided mumsnet with ALL my contact details and that of my mental health team

They of course re opened my account made this thread in the OP STATING I WAS NO TROLL

Even now I can access my inbox some lovely posters offering kind wishes have on other threads called me out as trolling :( so I won't waste my time in replying

Yet still many posters on this call me that or call bullshit!!(hello Derek)

I have nothing to hide the medication is helping and the ladies that visit me daily are lovely and I hope to keep updating mumsnet to how things are going though will stick to the mental health board

I wish you all the best xxxx

LilAnnieAmphetamine · 24/10/2014 11:09

It's all fair and well stating that we are all adults, responsible for our own actions and shouldn't expect others to take responsibility. However the irony is that when somebody is seriously mentally unwell they are often not responsible for their actions and the MHA is legally predicated on the services assuming responsibility for the safety of a service user until such a time as they are able to take up the reins again.

So the (very sensible) message doesn't apply to people who are mentally unwell and I suggest again that having specific MH boards therefore attracts people with MH issues and suggests it is a safe place for them to be. So HQ have an ethical duty of care to respond swiftly to a thread in which some body is posting a live unfolding of an attempt at suicide. Or pretending to.

The boards are great and they are needed. It takes such a simple change- lock, post appropriate signposts and replace OP with a simple explanation of what has happened and why actions has been taken.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 11:12

We're really glad you're feeling better wombat and understand you may feel under pressure to explain yourself.

Going forwards we'd be really grateful if you could keep your posts on this thread on-topic - that is, addressing the general points raised in the OP around what we should do about threads by posters who are feeling suicidal, and related matters.

We don't usually have an on-topic rule so apologies for being bossy I ruddy love being bossy but it's important to keep this thread on the rails, and that won't be possible if it becomes an extended discussion of your particular thread.

Best wishes from MNHQ and we hope your recovery continues Flowers

OP posts:
LilAnnieAmphetamine · 24/10/2014 11:15

Wombat

It is sad this has happened and I am pretty appalled that you felt you had to offer contact details of your CMHT to Mumsnet. I don't suppose they asked for them but what the hell has this place come to that somebody has to go to such lengths? It must have been such an interference to your treatment having all that to contend with?

Focus on your recovery and please think about whether it is playing into the hands of naysayers to feel you have to post intimate details of your health and life on here. MN is an illusion of safety- it is not private and it is not the safe accepting place, that at time, it lulls you into seeing it as. Unless it gets into a tardis and goes backwards by some years, this kind of thing is going to increase exponentially.

Good luck to you. :)

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