OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

Thank you to those of you liking my posts I was apprehensive about posting about this subject because sometimes see negative posts on here about MH professionals being useless or not caring and in my case (and in most cases) that is not the case at all.

I don't post on suicidal threads because I have too much knowledge about the subject. If it's a 'feeling suicidal, can it get better?' post then I will. Because I've worked with it and I've lived it. Even with all my knowledge and experience, when it happened to me I just didn't believe it would get better so to me, it's important to share that truth from my personal experience- that it CAN get better.

I don't post on actively suicidal threads because after so many years experience I think 99.9 % of the threads I've seen fall into a few categories.

One very small group will kill themselves (and it would be unusual to tell an internet forum that) and nothing ANYONE says will change that.

Another much bigger group are people in a lot of pain. They don't want to endure that pain anymore, they don't want to be themselves living their lives anymore. They don't want to do 'this' anymore or be 'here' but deep down they don't want to die so they're looking for an 'out' from that, a 'saviour'. For those people, the saviour could be a song, a smile, a few words from a stranger on MN. If there weren't people on MN saying 'don't do it!' the saviour would be found elsewhere because those people don't really want to die, they want someone or anyone- something or anything to see how much pain they are in and stop them because they don't really want to do it. For some people, they only need that 'reason not to die' (because deep down, they didn't want to) just once in their lives because their husband has left them or they're bereaved or whatever. For some people, they need this 'saviour' a few times in their lives during horrible times. Some people need it much more often.

Another category are what we call trolls who just like causing pain and worry and enjoy that. Some though are trolls who do have problems in their lives or personality disorders who aren't malicious (as in they don't enjoy the worry or pain they cause) but their lives are so sad and empty that they love the attention and care they receive on here that they disregard the feelings of others or how they make other people feel.

So what I'm saying is, MN will not save anyone that really wants to die. It may 'save' those who are looking for a savior but without MN, those people will be 'saved' by something else - because they want to be saved.

For the other people, having MNetters want them to stay alive will be part of a game or feeding a need and isn't really making them 'better' and that process may be really distressing MNetters who care and who feel a natural human need/want to help people.

oh i know, but in all honesty, i don't think we'll be listened to again, i think this another exercise in placating us into just shutting up and going away, again.

It seems to be a perpetual pattern. We get these threads, promises are made, and nothing happens.

See how things get off topic? A comment about Jesus read wrong and then someone else adds to it and now people are saying Jesus was a wanking troll. .

needyou
You are a loss to your profession.

Yeah, I know what you mean Splat.

MNHQ, can you put needyou on a retainer in some capacity?

She knows her shit.

Another excellent post Needyou.

Really helpful.

Hello everyone

After providing details to mumsnet I have been proven to NOT be a troll thank you to the mumsnet team for the support.

I am in hind sight of seeing the trouble my post caused of course regretting posting, but please see I found myself at the end of my tether

I am under going medication and have a crisis team and CPN who are helping me each day

Thank you to all who supported me it was important to prove I was no troll not for me but for others who posted and pm,ed me personal things

To all who still won't believe tough luck your problem not mine!! And I have been advised to report any hunting or bullying

I have myself and family to concentrate on at the moment

Thank you again xxxx

There is also, sadly, another category of people who post/say/write suicide letters. A more unusual group but they do exist. Every now and again you will get a suicide by somebody who wants it to inflict pain on others, who can conceive only of making an impact adequate enough by doing this. It is a variant on the family annihilators- the need to take something away from those left behind. They may be very mentally unwell themselves, but their motives also involve rage, pain and bitterness.

And MN (and other forums) are vulnerable to being used as part of this because the fall out would be immense.

Need you you're post is well thought out and not wrong.

Though I was one of the ones that would have done it given enough time and no help. I personally couldn't have goen on like it. I didn't want to die but I wanted it to stop enough that I'd have killed myself if I felt I had no other option. Luckily my CMHT admitted me voluntarily, as I needed somewhere to ride it out, adjust to new meds and just be in a bubble for a few weeks. So I don't think you can say those people who don't want to die won't do it IYSWIM? And of course it's hard to think rationally when you're wiring's all wrong and you can barely make sense of a newspaper let alone your own thought process or what to do next.

I think MNHQ have enough input now and it seems obvious which route they'll take. Hope they clear up these threads asap.

keema I didn't say that the internet should be withdrawn from all people with serious mh issues. but the fact that for some people it is considered the best thing for it to be withdrawn is a clear indication that not everyone's situation is the same, and that for one person the internet can be a positive while for another it can continue or even worsen the self destruct cycle.

For the person I know, tbh I was that she had no access to the outside world, and I questioned whether this was the current state of mh provision in this country and if so, how the hell could it have got to that level and were we still living in the days of institutions. But then I did some research and I spoke to a family member, and it turns out that this is considered the best course of action for her specifically. I don't know why, I am not fully aware of the facts surrounding her illness, but the fact remains that she is not allowed any contact to the outside world in any way shape or form - not even with her closest friends.

but for those posting on mn hoping to "save" someone, or to talk them down, or to be their lifeline it is simply not possible to know what state they're in and whether your "hugs" or "bump" or "just checking in," or "go and hug your babies because they need you," post is going to actually make a difference or potentially even send them spiralling in the opposite direction to you'd intended.

Yes, one thing I learned fast was to not assume that somebody would behave 'typically'. Risk assessment has to have that tacit component alongside its objective side and this is not something that can be achieved online.

And telling somebody to 'go and hug their babies' when they are suicidal is likely to pile on even more guilt. If that was all it took, we'd have no PND.

Zombie is one of the silent readers of the thread who was greatly distressed by it as MaryZ has repeatedly said.

She also agrees that if someone is absolutely determined to take their own life there is absolutely nothing that anyone on an internet forum can say to prevent it. Her own personal experience was 40 years ago but seeing that thread brought it all back at a time when she is having quite a difficult time coping not only with her incurable cancer but also with other things going on in her life.

She is grateful beyond words for the love and support she has found here on MN but she doesn't feel it is or should be anyone else's responsibility to try and solve those issues.

What is this username bit above my message??? I'm confused haha

lil agree. I had lots of people tell me of course I wouldn't do it, I have DS. Which just added to the massive guilt complex I had going on and actually pushed me further to the edge as I felt like no one actually got how bad I was/how much help I was in need of, besides people on here and then eventually the crisis team.

When I was struggling my firm belief was that I was a negative presence in my children's lives. Reference to their well being might have pushed me further downwards.

Wombat

Could there be a Samaritans section to the MH board, which has some Samaritan mods from various parts of the country. All threads about/referring to suicide get moved there.

Could there be a private section of that board where, for whatever reason, and to protect the vulnerable (whether that be the OP or the readers) threads could be moved, and the Samaritans continue to offer support? Or the Samaritans ask them to phone in. I could see how this could be time consuming fot them to keep replying to threads indefinitely.

Perhaps an OP should PM a real name, address, current location and phone number to a designated moderator if bringing up the subject of suicide.

You can say that The Samaritans have training and experience, but they also get wind up merchants calling in with abuse or fake stories.

So yes, there are time wasters out there, and worse who will take advantage, but if the Samaritans took the attitude that some posters are advising here, they would have shut up shop long before there was any internet for trolls to play on.

Suicide threads when they are in the form of a note - get them gone or frozen, with details of where to get help on the deletion message /email to the op/hold message if the thread is suspended. I wish I could articulate how I feel about them without being offensive, but they are very different from the "I don't want to be here, talk to me" threads.

Surely, "try not to be a drama llama" is sufficient in terms of trollery, whatever your opinion of their veracity. The saviour concept is the same, whether you believe they are real or you don't know those involved or affected. Sending money, doing a mercy dash or trawling birth and death notices is all part of the same thing and probably gives the same head rush of the righteous.

Don't give what you can afford to lose and don't think that your individual involvement, whichever side of the cynical fence, is really that important. It's not.

wombat glad your getting the help you need.

Mumsnet is not The Samaritans.

It is a chat forum and product review site.

I've had suicide prevention training and the upshot was that quite simple things can, in fact, prevent someone from doing the act in the short term at least.

These things include; reminding them of reasons not to, giving them hope that it will get better, and trying to safeguard by connecting them to other support. You don't necessary have to be a trained mental health professional to offer these things.

All this does is buy a bit of time for them to get some proper long term professional support.

But I agree that there are people for whom posting on MN will only serve to feed into the drama, actually be harmful to them and upset everybody else in the process.

I think 'suicide note' threads should be deleted but someone from MNHQ needs to at least try to engage with the person, try to make sure they know how to get support or whatever. I'm glad MNHQ are getting some advice from folks that deal with this every day.

The Samaritans can't actually offer 'life advice' or really give any sympathy/express empathy, or just general support which is what many people post for. They mostly just listen. It would be a very pointless, mostly one sided thread