OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

As for troll hunting, maybe if we redefined trolls and stopped calling out people as goady or trolls if they dare to post an unpopular (on mumsnet) opinion, it would be less of a constant word.

Agree with this. MN also has clear rules on troll hunting which is report don't hunt.

Most people would appreciate that if something is due to a general policy then it is not a personal rejection or a 'sign' of anything, but a very depressed person with distorted thinking may not be able to appreciate it at that moment.

There probably is a better way to deal with immediate threat type suicide threads, but I think it is really important that people who are generally low and admit they have thoughts of suicide or just say 'I shouldn't be here' are not moved or deleted. If that were the case the MH section would be quite compromised, which would be a shame. I agree MN is not going to stop anyone determined to kill themselves imminently, but many people who admit to thinking about suicide/mention the idea in a thread that is largely about ongoing depression (rather than suicide itself) are in a different position and could benefit from the support.

I think where someone threatening suicide is suspected of being a troll, it could be really dangerous for random users to wade in with accusations. It would surely be better to stick to reporting to HQ even if it takes till morning.

There are lots of threads from people who are feeling very low, and even suicidal.

I haven't seen people call for them to be moved or deleted, their op's aren't called names, they get lots of support.

That's the whole point - it's not those types of threads we are talking about.

Oh good, just checking, as personally I haven't witnessed any of the other kind quite relieved that I haven't.

well, I was recognised in a shop once so I guess that means I can't be a troll.

As an aside, and I realise this may be somewhat emotive, there is a lot of talk on here from people who say they absolutely needed the support from mn in their time of crisis. The thing is, sometimes that support can be what stops the person from accessing genuine help, and when you aren't ready to access help but are still feeling desperate, it can be easier to cling to your comfort zone of the online world than it can be to step out into the real world and seek real help.

I know someone currently who is receiving serious psychiatric treatment as an in patient. And one of the things which has been considered most damaging and most destructive to her recovery is her online communication, even though as an outsider you would never know that. As such she has had all access to the online, essentially the outside world withdrawn. She cannot access the internet in any way shape or form. she is currently not able to have a mobile phone, she cannot have access to social media or online forums, she currently can't even receive letters. she cannot communicate with anyone atm other than those who are able to visit her. And yet two days prior to this all becoming public knowledge to her friends she was on social media writing happily, being open and honest about the fact she is ill and will be receiving treatment, no-one knew how serious it was until her fb friends were informed she firstly couldn't have her mobile and then that she couldn't receive any post at all.

The thing is that none of us are qualified to judge what state a poster is in. the way someone writes is no indication - this is the internet, people can write in all manner of ways, read and re-read a post and make sure it fits with how they want it to look, and to the onlooker it appears the op wrote out a thread in haste and is in genuine distress. Or someone could be cheerful and helpful and lovely on here and go home and kill themselves tomorrow. It's just not possible to know, and it's just not possible to be in a place where you can know you're giving the right support. And no, "hugs," or "bump," or "just checking in," really isn't "the right support" for someone writing a suicide note and publishing it in chat.

maryz I have personal experience with suiside. If you search my past comments on other threads you will see that true. My mother. Hanging was her personal favourite choice of way out. Never succeeded though . I'm NC with her. So with even those experience I can still show empathy to other posters that may or may not be going through that.
You don't have to over invest yourself report if you think something is suspect.

At the end of the day, it was not MN that helped the poster on the thread the other day, she got on with it. Her husband found her. So nobody really did any good, and I realize that may be controversial but I agree with Wannabee that there is a chance that real life help i not sought.

Also it's not up to you to protect other posters. Leave that to the site owners and moderators.

Totes agree with HQ, report a suspected troll to THEM, not blaze it on the actual thread.

Ive had that on a thread I did ages ago and it really was upsetting for me.

WannaBe when I was an inpatient receiving "serious psychiatric treatment" I was actively allowed access to Mumsnet as it was acknowledged that it was beneficial to me to be able to access the site. It was also acknowledged that I made very good use of social media as a form of support, both from this site and some FB groups I belong to, and I was encouraged to continue.

I'm sorry if my comments don't agree with you maryz. I don't mean to come across as snide, I just don't agree with you. And to be fair you picked my comment out and was arsy about it. That's why I responded to you.

Any way this is open forum with rules to report if you suspect anything. MNHQ see more than the posters can. Leave it to them.

AllHallows MNHQ asked for opinions about this subject, Mary is only offering hers.

Yes and so am??? Maryz picked out my comment so I was responding.

I'm out! Enjoy!

Mnhq have said they want imput
'Leave it to mnhq' when mnhq are saying openly that they think their current policy needs review is a bit odd/circular tbh.

jeez what happened last night? (am on holiday)

Seconding Keema. I was allowed to use the internet in the computer room once a day then eventually on my phone. So were most of the other patients. They said it can help to reduce anxiety about others wondering why you've dropped off the gace of the earth and to keep in contact with people without ringing/to post in any forums you're on (though they are allowed to read if they're concerned it's a pro-suicide site or anything like that).

But this is the thing: we are all individuals with different personalities (ranging from v vulnerable to tough as shoe leather) and different back stories (which may or may include personal/family/social circle experience of abuse/DV/suicide/bereavement/rape/etc etc).

Different things are going to be triggering to different people.
Different posters will have different mechanisms and capacity for self-protection (some people deeply traumatised by, say, rape will actively seek out sexual assault threads while other will avoid them like the plague).
The same is true in RL IME.

MNHQ and any other internet forum cannot cater to everybody's needs and make allowances for everybody's weaknesses.
If it comes down to protecting "everybody" then we can really only post about kittens or something.

I'd not like that. At all.

If we could remember to err on the side of kindness, not say/post anything if we cannot think of anything supportive to say, report suspected trolls, , then it would all work just fine.

I know. I am naive. Utopia.

Pacific that's hit the nail on the head though

i dont think our input really matters, we're not MH professionals.

personally i think the only people MNHQ should take advice from are Samaritains and MIND and that those guidelines should be strictly adhered to.

I also think MNHQ need to still to previous promise to move threads that ought to be in mental health TO mental health.

The only thing that perhaps should be changed, is maybe creating a "Mental Health Peer Support" forum for those "i need support" threads to be moved in to, so those posting in MH for general advice dont have to be faced with the needy threads that might be upsetting for them.

I thought thus was about very specific situation: poster on thread saying they have/are/about to self harm/commit suicide.

Interactions with people who are experiencing such extreme symptoms of mental ill-health need to be handled by people with training who can find out where that person is, judge whether they are at risk, and have obtained the necessary info to send police/ambulance.

Splat
That may well be true. My point was that repeatedly posting 'leave it to mnhq' when mnhq are saying 'we don't know , what do you lot think' is not really helpful.

I thought it was about specific suicide threats, not self-harm.