OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

Good luck wombat and hope you feel better soon

Wombat it's good to see you

Take good care of yourself.

Wombat

And why would The Samaritans, a charity, provide full-time backup for a forum on a commercial website?

They shouldn't. And it would be a minefield legally and commercially. As it should be seen as now. There is a massive difference between "Mumsnet closed my thread and referred me to other sources of help" and "mumsnet posters didn't say the right thing for me, in my particular circumstances and frame of mind".

What do the lawyers say, mnhq?

Ooh, all good points, see what you mean.

I haven't read right through.

I think the daytime moderating is good and it's excellent that MNHQ responds to everyone.

But I think the night watch isn't enough at night. I assume that the night watch vols don't have access to the members' database or posting history like the daytime staff and clearly they don't have the same powers.

I've sat through a nasty homophobic thread that ran all night and I separately reported another suicide thread one night on the night watch thread (and I am trained by the Samaritans and MIND to assess risk of suicide so I knew she was at risk). I was criticised on the night watch thread for reporting it and the MNHQ response the following day said that the night watch vols weren't really there for that role.

I think you need paid night staff of the same seniority as the day staff and with the same database to hand. They need the same powers to act decisively. The nights are a bit "Wild West" at the moment.

Thanks for all that MNHQ staff do though.

Orchard: I'm not saying those who don't want to die enough won't do it, just that for those people - words from strangers on a forum won't make much (if any) difference.

When it happened to me I DID want to die. I couldn't contemplate living my life feeling so much pain. My friends, family, career -nothing mattered. I never felt (like many depressed people do) that people would be better off without me; because I'd worked in MH for so long that I had too much knowledge of the utter devastation left behind by suicide.

I did think at that point (depression distorts thinking) that if my loved ones knew, just knew 1% of how I felt every day then they would be glad for me that I'd died. They would be glad that I wasn't experiencing that pain day after day.

The only thing that stopped me killing myself was the thought it might fail and I'd be assessed by colleagues as a suicide attempt. That was the ONLY reason. It's very difficult to commit suicide successfully and make it look like an accident (spent a long time researching!). Luckily; while I was planning, I started to feel better.

And you're right, you just want it to stop if there's no help. If someone put me back in that place tomorrow and said 'that's it now, it won't get better' I would jump off a bridge and not care if everyone knew I'd tried to kill myself if I survived. I came through it once, I honestly could not come through it again and nothing could stop that. Not any people who know me and love me and definitely not people I don't know on the Internet.

Pacific - Still working in MH, still helping a lot (so my service users tell me ) and I hope I am! but in a very specialised and 'niche' area where my role is to identify the issues within complex lives that seem not to have responded to MH treatment but the solutions to those issues is not within my role.

Took me a looooong time in MH to realise I couldn't make everything better for people, no matter how much I tried or wanted to ( I was 20 when I started) I couldn't save people even if every part of me wanted to and every part of me wanted to believe that I could.

Therein lies a lot of distress and that's why I don't want MNetters to feel that pressure even for a few minutes.

I think that's an important point Mighty Mouse. I would guess that if there was more confidence that any reported threats would be dealt with rapidly and consistently it might reduce some of the troll hunting.

It would remove some of the oxygen from the trolls too.

Ultimately as a commercial site MNHQ needs to take a decision about whether it wants to invest in the additional staff in order to protect itself and it's reputation.

I do think that posters need to dial down their investment in mn, though. Particularly from the "helpful" side of the equation.

You know, there are profound and heartfelt posts written every day all over the internet. Some of them become memes. But even those have a half life of a week, at best. Every now and again, they pop up again months later, but how often does that happen on a fast moving website like MN? Even reality's eloquent post in relationships only crops up once every few months and God only knows there are dozens of Dittany posts that are worthy of a revisit on multiple fwr threads and elsewhere but are long forgotten. I'm sure you all have your own examples.

Forum culture is fascinating. This conversation is going on on multiple forums out there right this minute. MN is not unique.

Actually I probably is, for lots of good reasons, but not unique in these particular problems.

Don't go for full on moderation, though. That way madness lies.

I know what you meant, it was a good post

Just wanted to clarify. I've been there 3 times now but it is what it is. I've found things that helped me through each time, and the last time it was MN for advice/support then after hospital CBT!

I hope MNHQ sort it soon anyway. And that this all dies down for now.

Good to hear you are still working in the filed, needyou

field - field of MN

My first post ever on mumsnet was on an existing thread, I was accused on trolling by long term well known members , names you see on loads of threads.

I ignore them, but then I am able to , not everyone is.

If you suspect trolling report it , do not respond to it.

So, only long term well known members troll hunt?

how did you know they were long term/well known if it was your first post?

Didn't you just know this would turn into a long term well known poster bashing thread.

I'm surprised it took this long TBH.

She stated her experience. How is that bashing?

Usual, all long timers are cunts. I thought you knew that?

Long timers are cunts, newbies are trolls - is there a perfect length of time to have been posting here to be trustworthy?

it always does usual. there are certain people on this forum who will use any official thread as an opportunity to call any long term/well known poster a bully and/or a Troll.

You could almost make your own bingo card.

I've been here over 10 years and still have never been called a troll.

wTF is wrong with me, eh?

Another one encouraged to use the internet for support in hospital here :) My internet access helps me to distract so much - although I am surprised by how unmoderated it is. I have never heard of anyone not being allowed any contact outside :( All the staff are dead chuffed for me at my notice board full of cards. PICU doesn't allow phones or internet though.

I think suicide notes being deleted and supporting posts for suicidal people is a good idea. Would people be allowed to post they are suicidal? Like how much can you say?

Oh and I have been on MN for ages and I don't think the trollery is so bad at the moment - used to be worse.