OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

maryz has posted twice about a long term poster on another site who created a persona and situations for years but was a troll, so what would be the point of putting the number of posts or how long someone had been a member next to their name?
I think some people try to prove themselves right when they spot someone they think is a troll, so keep repeating it or making sarky remarks on the thread. I think it's ok to ask question to clarify something dodgy, but the thread should be reported and then just move on.
Threads from posters needed support should be allowed to stand, but "suicide notes" or direct threats of killing themselves now should refer to professionals and be locked.

It could quite a heavy burden to put on somebody else who just come to MN for a bit of fun, or light relief, or advice.

You dont just walk into a random crowd and tell them you are going to hang yourself, and expect them to sit down with you, hold your hand, give you a mug of tea and let you ramble on for hours. They would most likely advice you to call Samaritans, see a GP, or if you are lucky put you in a cab to A&E. Why? Because they dont know you from Adam, and they dont necessarily know how best to treat you. Why expect MN to be any different than a random crowd?

*needing support

So for those who say calling troll on a thread is unproductive, how many of you have been here for the known, damaging troll outings?

It’s one thing to say “report and move on,” but the reality is that many of the most prolific trolls on mn were reported time after time after time for weeks on end and it was only when someone has dared to speak out on a thread that something has finally been done and a mass of other posters have admitted that they too were suspicious and had reported.

Dizzymare was posting here for months before she was outed. She was reported numerous times but mn hq were powerless to do anything and admitted they’d had several reports but were powerless to act. So she went through becoming pregnant, finding out it was twins while befriending other parents who had lost babies, many of them twins themselves and befriending them off board. She lost her babies and wailed incoherently on a thread overnight which received hundreds and hundreds of posts. And people reported because her story was inconsistent – dramatically inconsistent. It was only when someone posted a thread saying “look, it’s clear people are becoming heavily invested in an emotive thread but bear in mind that this poster may not be all she seems,” that people started to voice their own suspicions publically and mn hq were finally forced to act. And fwiw dizzymare was publically outed several months later on another bereavement forum after it transpired the pictures of her dead babies had been lifted from the internet.

Ethanchristopher who was supposedly a young teenage mum had befriended other young mums off board and was arranging to meet up. Again, people reported and reported and reported and it was only when someone challenged her on a thread she finally admitted she was a lier and had made up her story. For all we know she could have been a predator trying to lure in young vulnerable teenage mums....

Apparently the unmasking of judge flounce was done publically (this was before my time but he/she was legend when I first joined mn).

TDWP was actually being reported for years before she was finally banned.

I could go on but tbh the list is endless. But suffice to say that all of the high profile trolls have been outed due to someone daring to speak out on a public thread, not due to reporting.

The thing is that these days the trolls we consider high profile generally only have a thread which runs for a few days, so a public outing seems a bit brutal when a thread has only run for a short-ish period of time. But it wasn’t that long ago that trolls became well known on mn before being outed.

There needs to be middle ground IMO. I’m not a believer in leaping on to a thread and yelling “troll!” but equally I don’t think there’s necessarily an issue in someone coming on to thread and saying “hang on a minute, yesterday you posted x, now you’ve contradicted it with y, and actually it’s not possible to have happened like that because of z and perhaps posters should be a bit careful and remember that not everyone on the internet is who they seem.

That is a great post NeedYou.

It is an unpalatable, sad truth that if someone chooses to take their life they will. We are creating an illusion of control - if we do x that will help, if we stop y that may'.
We are impotent really and pretending we can help is misguided.
We are worrying about the poster whose actions are unlikely to be affected by us yet those reading the thread may experience echos of their own traumatic times around this topic.

It's unsurprising it is such a fraught topic. I don't know what the answer is
[not at all helpful]

It could quite a heavy burden to put on somebody else who just come to MN for a bit of fun, or light relief, or advice.

So can threads about bereavement or domestic violence or rape.

It is an unpalatable, sad truth that if someone chooses to take their life they will

Yes, this - entirely agree.

But I also see how locking or moving a thread could feel like rejection to a vulnerable poster as temporaryusername says.

I have been here 8 years. I have seen the unmasking of numerous trolls. I have seen many suicide threads. I have seen the cycles of "why are there so many trolls" etc.

I could be a troll. I could be a sock puppet. (I am not though, but hypothetically I could) I could have a totally different identity posting alongside the many variations of Quint.

Anyone of us could be trolls. Having been here a long time is no reason to think we are not trolls. On the contrary. There is no reason to think a Troll pops out of nowhere and suddenly decide to come to MN to Troll, or NM for that matter. If I were to troll a website, I would know what boxes to tick on MN, I would not know how to troll Bounty, or NM! I would know very well how to Troll on here!

Different discussion to how to handle actual real suicide threads though.

Surely the fact that very serious threads about all sorts of sad and/or distressing subjects exist side by side with more lighthearted stuff is part of the appeal of a forum like MN, no?

I do think we owe ourselves to be responsible about what we get in to I run screaming from most S&B threads as I have no clue

The Serenity Prayer comes to mind...

Yes Keema, they can.

Personally I feel strong enough to handle a dv thread than a suicide thread. The latter hits closer to home. Which is why I personally stay away, and would like not to have to realize I am reading one. But that is about protecting my preference, not helping another person. Not sure how the two of them can be combined.

Good post also, Pagwatch.

I know all too well that offers of help have to be wanted, people have to want to help themselves.

If they are hellbent on a particular path, nothing will help them.

Perhaps its too difficult a topic to moderate.

I clearly have no idea what the answer is.

What's needed is a clear visible policy on everything, devised with support from professionals and then quick, consistent implementation of it.
Bit like raising children. I tell my kids what the rules are but if I don't follow through they start doing their own thing.
Then if you don't like it you can choose to leave.
Fwiw I think suicide threads are appalling and attract either vulnerable people or those wanting to be the special one that saves the OP. Like other dramatic threads people get overexcited and try to demonstrate their help.
As for troll hunting, maybe if we redefined trolls and stopped calling out people as goady or trolls if they dare to post an unpopular (on mumsnet) opinion, it would be less of a constant word.
I don't think mumsnet has a reputation externally as particularly supportive - media and others seem to view us as a bunch of bitches tbh! So I don't think a policy on locking or deleting suicide threads would have much impact.

That is very kind of you Maryz But the point is that to Troll a site, I think you need to know it. Does that make sense?

If Jesus was a troll I bet he would use familiar, easy to remember names.
< coughMaryzcough>

That MaryZ is a troll btw

I think you are both right - there are certain posters I think we all 'know' and believe to be genuine even if the have never met them in RL.
And to successfully troll a site over a period of time you have to know it really well. (Just as an aside: who could be bothered to believe their own narrative if it's all made up?!)

X-post, Pags - great minds!

I think MNHQ are stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Yes this site provides amazing support at times but it is just a chat site when all said and done.

I personally don't think it should be used a a lifeline (literally) for vulnerable people.

I accept what you're saying WannaBe, and I haven't been here that long. I've seen threads that I don't believe for a minute, a couple of them quite sensitive and I have been amazed that some posters seem to believe every word. I'm not saying don't call troll, but what is the point of a poster repeating it over and over, or making repeated sarcastic comments Some people will believe anything and won't thank you for pointing out that they're being suckered. Let them get on with it

No one posting about feeling suicidal is expecting people after lighthearted kniting threads to reply are they. I avoid certain threads (can't handle rape ones or DV as it's too close to home) but no one would dream of discussing them like we're discussing the MH ones.

Which is basically what Keema said but I'm just parroting.

whenever someone posts a threat of imminent suicide, the thread should be deleted immediately. It is utterly irresponsible to allow such threads to continue.

This. Absolutely. And an email telling them to call 999/111.

Mumsnet is not the fourth emergency service. It is not a safe alternative to that person speaking to trained professionals.