OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

Agree with Maryz. Being completely sidelined from MN makes it pointless. (The general very-low &/or considering suicide ones, not the actual live suicide ones).

"the trolls won't post there and genuine posters will feel worse as they are ignored." - Not necessarily if they are told somebody from the Samaritans will be along shortly.

A Samaritan has training, and will be much better equipped to deal with a suicidal person that your average mumsnetter. Who may just start fretting.

But if we were told it existed, and ops were messaged and directed there, then we have a choice about whether to respond or not, Maryz ?

There is nothing stopping them from posting another thread, without mentioning suicide if they just want support and some handholding, while they can get the more targeted support on the thread quarantined for the Samaritans to deal with.

The only way that would work was if the threads were reported and then moved there

Who would be happy to pay a fee to access the forums and post, in order to perhaps fund some professional help being available ?

Might that also stop a lot of trolling ?

Or should HQ just message poster and say ' go to samaritans/contact your local MH team' ?

Just wanted to say that we will keep checking in on this over the next couple of days so do please keep posting up your thoughts. Thanks all

I take it all back - Jesus was not a troll because he had not access to MN

Of course people should be 'allowed' to post here when they are at their lowest and most vulnerable - some of the support I have seen over the years has been awe-inspiring.
But 'live' suicide threads? Nope.

Thanks for posting the Samaritan's policy - I had asked.
I suppose their policy is in line with the fact that suicide is not illegal and that we are allowed to make choices - even harmful ones (well, people chose harmful stuff every day).

I don't get 'feeding the troll', outrage on a thread, posters almost egging each other on to make another sarky remark - I think that is quite different from asking 'What did you mean by that?' or 'Earlier you said X, now you are saying Y - I am confused.' People are allowed to post confusing stuff without being necessarily trolls.

Maybe they could stay in chat or wherever they were posted but be marked in some way so that people know what they might be clicking on? The one the other night, I would have avoided clicking had it not been a thread title that could have been any number of things to do with goodbye. People like me could avoid and people who like helping or don't get upset by it could do so.

The SN boards and Off The Beaten track work - the former because they are mainly inhabited by a close band of sisters who know where to find each other, and the other because people seek out just because it's off the beaten track.
I don't think that approach would work for suicide threads.

I'm sure HQ could implement a policy that all suicidal threads immediately be moved ? No matter when ?

Seems to be plenty of posters who adore the report button, not necessarily for the right reasons.

Could they be moved to a "severe mental health topic", which some of us could chose to hide?

A Samaritan has training, and will be much better equipped to deal with a suicidal person that your average mumsnetter, who may just start fretting

They aren't a magic solution. Unlike some posters on MN, who are willing to give advice/help and may have been there themselves, The Sam's can only talk. No advice is allowed. I felt more suicidal after talking to them, as my GP told me to just call them if I felt very bad but I just told someone my issues at the time and that was that.

Again, it feels like lots of people who haven't experienced a MH crisis themselves (either directly or through a loved one) are telling lots of us who have how to best deal with a crisis.

That's what I mean, Quint

I think I waffle too much.

as there seems to be a serious case of chinese whispers, can i clear something up please?

Sangria was not the OP of the thread deleted in sitestuff, i was, and i'd like to repost my original OP, so people can please stop accusing me of being a bully.

My post wasn't about calling wombat a troll, it was about asking if there was something the posters or MNHQ could do to prevent people from sharing personal info to the OP of a questionable thread if it was of a sensitive nature.

"SplatTheScaryCat Mon 20-Oct-14 20:02:25
Is there someway we can have a proviso put on the 'no troll hunting' rule, so we can actually say, on say... a very sensitive thread, something worded carefully and nicely such as

i have a feeling this isn't quite what it seems, can people please be careful about sharing personal stories or sending pms with their phone numbers and details.

i appreciate that without really good evidence that MNHQ have to err on the side of allowing a thread to stay, but leaving some very sensitive threads there when its obvious they're not real or an OP stringing people along is damaging and possibly even triggering to other emotionally and mentally vulnerable posters.

i am really, really uncomfortable with the idea that some threads that have questionable authenticity are allowed to stand and be left for emotional vampires, ghouls and place marking rubber-neckers to cry and emote all over while genuinely vulnerable posters are sucked in without any forewarning that all might not be what it seems.

Of course this site is for support, but in leaving those kind of threads there, we're failing to support the people genuinely in need.

And if we can't, can MNHQ post it? i know you do something similar on begging threads, but can you perhaps please post a sensitive 'be careful' warning on mental health 'cry for help' threads too please after they get a certain amount of 'we dont believe this one' posts? Please?"

Now, will people stop calling us bullies. TYVM!

You can hide the MH topic.

And most threads are obvious when they're about severe MH. I managed to only read the first post of them and guess it wasn't what I wanted to see for the last year...can't others do the same (to the one's that are severe but not actual live suicides)? No one forces people to read to the end of threads!

The thing is, we've all heard of stories where someone was suicidal and someone asked if they were ok when they were crying outside Sainsburys or they posted on a forum and somebody replied and it changed their mind. And I'm not saying that's untrue because I don't know. But in over 15 years of working in MH I've never met a service user who told me they were genuinely going to kill themselves and some random seemingly insignificant event 'saved' them. Again, I'm not saying it never happens as I can't state that but I've known a lot of people in mental distress and I've never heard that kind of 'hallmark card' story.

But I've known people that committed suicide who had love, children, whatever else positive going on in their lives and none of that mattered because depression is an irrational and deeply painful condition. They didn't tell anyone they were going to do it because they had their minds made up.

There just may be one poster who is 'saved' by MN but I don't think the slim chance of that should cancel out the fact that a lot of seemingly suicidal posters will really not be genuine or have no real intent outside of that moment in time but are; through the expression of their distress, deeply distressing and worrying a lot of people.

A lot of people with certain mental health problems are in distress and desperately want someone or many people to acknowledge that. And often, expressing suicidal intent feeds that need. People saying don't do it, we care, I bet you're lovely, your children need you etc are all lovely to say but for some people is counterproductive because it meets the need for a while until the next time and then they have to more desperate, more suicidal to get what they need.

On MN we don't know who is in desperate need or who is actually being made 'worse' by the responses they get.

"Again, it feels like lots of people who haven't experienced a MH crisis themselves (either directly or through a loved one) are telling lots of us who have how to best deal with a crisis."

Not sure where you are getting that. Not even sure your sentence make much sense... In what way can you deal with somebody elses crisis, when you dont know them, their situation, where they are, etc, that is beyond me.

I have more experience with mental health related shit than I would like to have, and it is because of that I dont feel able to read (or adequately respond to) suicide threads.

I avoid suicide threads, but the title one the other night sounded like your average Flounce.

I think that for possible trolls, threads could be locked down once a number of reports are received, while HQ investigate. Then once HQ have decided that it is a troll, the thread remains locked and the trolls posts are coloured some vile colour. If it isn't a troll then a message is posted and the thread is unlocked.

I do think troll posts should remain up for everyone to see. It is more likely that posters can be 'protected' if they can see for themselves that a particular poster is doing what they always do, or that the style is the same as a troll etc.

If someone's always a tit, isn't it better that everyone knows they're a tit?

We do take your point MrsL but MN has been unusual for a long time in this respect - both that we seek users' views on all sorts of things, and that so far we have usually allowed posts referring to suicide to stand.

But maybe being unusual in this instance isn't the right decision. Certain topics need heavier moderation than others and some need active management.

I'm worried that if someone who is suicidal has one bit of hope and reaches out for help, having that thread moved or deleted could feel like a rejection, or a sign that they should not be helped. Whatever was done would have to be done very carefully, not very helpful I know .

MNHQ, just to be clear - are we talking here about posters threatening to commit suicide there and then, so to speak, rather than those with suicidal feelings but with no immediate threats?

Quint

Becaue people keep suggesting just leaving MN alone and calling Samaritans etc. We all know they exist. If we post here we've likely chosen not to call them and don't want to. But lots of posters seem to think that they are the 'best' option. They aren't for some. Lots would agree and have agreed.