OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

Please folks, let's keep in general . We're going to delete some of the more recent posts as we really don't want this to descend into a dissection of any particular thread or poster.

Well, her name was not just that of a well-loved marsupial, was it?
Sorry to have put my foot in it.

magi
I can reassure you that I will never stand for anything, ever

I don't know what the 'solution' is for suicide posts, I really don't.

What do the Samaritan's do if somebody phones them and discloses suicide plans?
It's the public arena of the interweb that's the problem.
I always think that if people post here is distress at least they are reaching out and I just take it upon myself to take that as "a call for help" (and I engage or not depending on how much time I have, whether DCs are climbing all over me or not etc). I am under no illusion that anything I say will 'save a life', but otoh sometimes a kind word gives people the impetus to seek RL help.

AND, crucially, I recognise that I happen to not be vulnerable to these threads and they are not triggering to me (not any kind of superiority on my part, just dumb 'luck').

I don't see how suicide threads could ever 'not be allowed' or put in to their own section (how depressing!! ).

I dunno.

Oh stop with the 'you don't have to be here' posts.

This thread was started to discuss the site.

Haven't read the full thread, and apologies if this has already been suggested or is just silly, but would it not help to have some sort of indication beside the username on posts of how long a member has been on MN? Not a specific join date, maybe a the username could be in a different colour until the member has been active for six months or something?

Nothing that tied them to their usual name if they had name changed to protect their privacy, just something that lets you see that the poster is in fact a regular member, despite the name being new.

I understand that many genuine users may only sign up because they have an issue they want to post about, and they would still show up as new, but surely it would reduce the amount of suspicion about posters showing up with new names?

There are probably some obvious reasons why it wouldn't work that I have not thought of.

I think the suicidal threads should be locked and the OP sent details of where to get help.

As a MH professional I've known quite a few people commit suicide and there really was nothing that anyone could have done to prevent it. I have also been suicidal with depression twice in the past and if all the people in my life couldn't make that better, some people I don't know on the internet certainly never could.

And although I've known a few people who did end their lives, I have known hundreds suggest that they would. And I am not saying it's attention seeking, a lot of people with certain mental health problems experience emotional dysregulation so they can feel desperate and suicidal at one point and very different a few hours later. They're still in distress and I'm not questioning that but I think some of the threads I've seen could fit into that category.

The OP posts and at that time mean what they say but a few hours later it's very different (particularly if they were drunk or had used drugs when they posted). But as they have gone to bed or whatever, there are lots of MNetters shitting themselves because the OP has disappeared.

One of the reasons I left my job as a CPN (in addition to the violence) was because my heart stopped every day that I turned my work mobile on to find a suicidal text or voice mail. 99.9% of the time the person hadn't done anything to harm themselves but I'd feel sick till I got hold of them. MNetters don't know where the disappeared poster is.

And that was my job, I had training and clinical supervision to help me deal with it but it's still horrible to be on the receiving end of it. MNetters don't have the experience or training and I think some of these threads cause an enormous amount of distress and worry.

Oh, and I agree, the suicide threads and trolling/sockpuppeting are two separate although sadly sometimes interlinked issues.

It has been discussed and feed back has been given.

The jist is if you suspect it's a troll- report. It's that simple. People don't need to go in all guns blazing trying to dig out suspected trolls. They might actually not be.

MNHQ normally get round to doing the right thing regards to deleting or letting it stay. If it stays and you can't bare it - just stay away from the thread- take a step back.

needyou, x-posted with you; I think I agree with you.
Maybe it would be best to lock the thread with some signposting to RL resources for help.

The 'successful' suicides I had dealings with have fallen in to 3 categories: 'calls for help' accidentally leading to death, very severely depressed people with very intensive input from all sorts of agencies still finding a way to do it, or very sudden serious self-harm/self-imposed death without any apparent warning at all.
I don't think that many of these individuals post on an internet site first - maybe the first group or previous fleeting feelings of 'not wanting to feel this bad any more' rather than actively 'wanting to be dead' if that makes any sense at all?

Toys thrown out of the pram now ! Jesus!

I like an occasional heads up tbh if someone is obviously a troll.

pacific that's sounds like a good move.

tea I nearly always fall them but I never invest myself so much that I come away hurt.

'Twas needyou's idea - credit were credit is due

We've had the discussion several times MrsLettuce and as far as we know we've implemented the policies we came up with at the time.

One of the problems is there is absolutely no consensus, among posters, about how these threads should be dealt with. Many MNers feel VERY strongly that genuine users who feel suicidal should be able to use MN as a source of support and help. Others feel VERY strongly that they should not.

I know Rowan, but, TBH I've seen enough rounds of this exact same 'policy crisis' in the 7 or 8 years I've been here to start to think that, maybe, just, maybe, MNHQ don't actually want or intend to make any sort of clear policy decision WRT suicide threads but just want all sides of the argument to feel heard.

Whatever is decided people will be upset, there is very rarely consensus and always a fuck load of whingeing over anything MNHQ do. But, MNHQ are the parents here, as it were, and are surely aware that not making a decision is also a decision.

I think it's time HQ 'personed up', made a decision and owned that decision, even if that is a wooly 'we'll just carry on as we always have done thankyouverymuch'.

Trolling. Sometimes I think the troll hunting is more of an issue than the trolling. Put the effort into reporting it.

I have seen people being accused of trolling when they are describing a really complex difficult situation. The inquisition and demanding to know the answers then nit picking over those answers is painful. It's not support and generally support is being sought. I have seen MN come onto the thread and say we have no reason to disbelieve so quit hunting. It's pretty arrogant to think that because you don't believe something it therefore cannot be true. Yet that continues.

I can remember someone describing a situation that I too had experienced and being torn apart because it was so 'unbelievable'. How lovely to have such limited experience in life that you can't believe alternative experiences.

I don't think I can recall a single troll thread that has upset me. I wonder how much some posters have invested in MN that it affects them so much. Just don't post, don't read...there are plenty of other threads..it's bollocks to suggest you are protecting other spotters and upset for them. They are adults and it's hardly a war zone

Suicide...I agree that letting posts stand is dangerous for triggering other posters and dangerous because there is no control over the responses. However withdrawing all help seems grim...I agree with locking, shifting and directing/linking to trained help....even if that meant Samaritans training up volunteers to post on here

Regards post counts. Instead of exact counts what about coding a beginner...to prolific get a life kinda poster?

I agree with various posters that this issue is about more than one thread and more than whether one specific poster was truthful or not. Trollhunting is only one of several worries with threads of this nature

I don't believe Jesus was a troll.

I don't think I can recall a single troll thread that has upset me. I wonder how much some posters have invested in MN that it affects them so much

The troll who took over my name and posted that my son had died upset me and a lot of posters. Nothing to do with been invested too much in Mn.

Some subjects get to people.

Paggy

I believe Jesus was a RL historical person, but I don't believe he was the son of god. Makes him a troll in my book.

It's all getting a little MH-shaming. People post about other very distressing things (stillbirths, misscarriages, cancer etc) and no one would ask them not to or ridicule them for posting on MN instead of having rl support etc. But that's what I've read a lot of, MNHQ.

The suicide threats are different but people keep mentioning how MN isn't a MH support network. No, it isn't. But there are threads and posters who do support each other and there is NOTHING wrong with that. No different to the general health board.

It's been very upsetting to hear how many people think it's wrong for people to use MN as a source of support. Some of us haven't got many other options. And, as the last few days on here have shown, misunderstanding, prejudice and ridicule towards MH is still rife...