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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MN hq, In light of recent postings on various parts of the site, can we please have an all-round discussion around conduct, authenticity and where we, the users stand?

252 replies

WannaBe · 21/10/2014 14:14

It’s fairly evident that there has been an increased influx of threads perceived not to be genuine of late. It has got to a point where people are hiding certain sections of the boards, sections which should be there to offer support but which are actually becoming a bit of a breeding ground for highly emotive threads which, after a day or two, turn out not to be genuine and then disappear only to be replaced by another one of the same type.

The problem with this is that there seem to be more “what happened to x thread?” posts on those boards now than threads themselves, which has totally taken away the supportive element to certain parts of the site.

This has come to a bit of a head last night because an extremely sensitive thread has been closed due to doubts about its authenticity, but the thread itself is still there for anyone to see, but subsequent discussion about the thread in question has been deleted due to it being “a taat.”

I appreciate that it’s not always possible to know whether a thread is genuine and that sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.

I also appreciate that we as grown adults are responsible for our own reactions to what we read online and that we should never share more than we can afford to lose.

But in the real world you know that it’s not always that simple. Because people do read threads and do identify with them on a personal level, or empathise with an op, and feel the need to offer support. And when it turns out those threads are not genuine, people feel as if they have needlessly offered of themselves to support someone whose situation was never real.

My personal view is that certain threads shouldn’t be allowed to stand regardless. Threads such as suicide ones where posters are neither emotionally equipped or professionally qualified to deal with someone on the end of a keyboard. There are numerous support sources out there for people with such severe mh issues that they feel their only hope is suicide. MN is IMO not nor should it be considered to be one of them.

The reality is that we are a parenting forum. Many parents will go through other issues such as mh issues, but in truth mn’ers cannot be all things to all people, and removing a suicide thread does not mean that mn is an unsupportive environment, it simply means that mn is not equipped to deal with a suicidal poster and feels that they would benefit from professional help. In addition to this, removing such a thread protects those posters who have either had similar thoughts, or have personal experience of suicide, and at the same time reduces the types of topics which people can post vampiric threads about.

Added to that, if a thread is considered to not be genuine and is deleted, removing discussion of it will not take away the thought of it, and the more threads are deleted with discussion being stifled, the more resentful posters will become, and the less likely to post on discussion threads.

People want to talk about threads. Not least because most people are here because they enjoy being here, and feel they offer something when posting in support. If you take that away from people by stifling discussion (however unpalatable some of that discussion is), people will start to go elsewhere, or simply not post anywhere.

In addition, if you refuse to discuss suspected troll threads, leave emotive but locked threads on the boards, people will just continue their increased belief that there are more trolls than regulars and will see mn as a non worthwhile place to post. A fantacist’s corner, as it were. Is that really how you want mn to be perceived? Because atm it seems like it is a novel writer’s paradise on relationships with a touch of bitching thrown in for good measure on ibu.

OP posts:
CinnabarRed · 22/10/2014 14:43

HOWEVER, the posts that some people had written, telling their own stories, I found very touching. So, even though posters may feel tha their posts were pointless or they were taken advantage of, well, I'd like to say thank you to them. As someone who is still very low, it was genuinely heartening to read them. So thank you. The op may have been a troll, but as a lurker, the genuine posts were good to read (to me anyway)

With all due respect to nethunsreject [I know that sounds weasely, but I truly mean it] - you have no idea how much it cost each of those posters to post their story, nor what effect it had on readers.

My father committed suicide and I myself have been suicidal in the past, and although I have shared my story with others on MN each and every time I had done so the price to my own well-being has been more than I should have paid. Undoubtedly it cost me more than any benefit it brought the readers.

So I don't post my story any more.

But it took me tears untold to learn the lesson.

Maryz · 22/10/2014 14:43

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Maryz · 22/10/2014 14:46

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Doyouthinktheysaurus · 22/10/2014 15:18

The problem is that allowing these threads to stay and the simple fact that the op continues to post on the thread and responds positively to the attention, not ending their life and continuing to engage perpetuates the belief amongst those responding that they are helping and without this resource that person may have killed themselves.

That's ultimately bollocks and CinnabarRed you write very eloquently about the real cost of allowing these threads to stand.

Few could fail to be troubled by reading a thread title and op detailing their plans to kill themselves and saying goodbye. That is not something that can be unseen and forgotten easily by anyone, for someone personally touched by suicide the impact could be extremely damaging.

Spindarella · 22/10/2014 15:18

Some thoughts:

I've posted before that I was a member of another forum where someone pulled a long-haul troll effort. It was at least two years - very probably longer. Long standing member means NOTHING.

I keep saying people say "well does it matter if the OP is a troll as other people post advice and maybe someone watching from the sidelines is being helped". Well to that I would say there is nothing stopping ANY member of MN starting a post right now saying "I was in x situation 3 years ago. I come out the other side. Here's my experience if it helps". In fact oretty much every specialist section of the site has people doing just that. There is nothing altruistic about trolls. They aren't somehow prompting a debate that would otherwise never happen and shouldn't be validated as such.

LilAnnieAmphetamine · 22/10/2014 15:21

Definitely Spin

Gambling on some accident of altruism is a poor reason to host threads like these.

WannaBe · 22/10/2014 15:43

Excellent points spin. :)

Maryz I remember that thread from 2.5 years ago - it was completely crazy, with people posting other threads on the board to alert people to its presence, talk of posting on twitter/fb to make people aware it was there....

And it seems that I can now change my username from the main site within a thread which wasn't previously available iirc? only on the mobile site. So namechanging is becoming a much easier pursuit... Hmm

OP posts:
heartisaspade · 22/10/2014 15:44

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LineRunner · 22/10/2014 16:14

And that ^^ is really pretty bloody crucial.

mipmop · 22/10/2014 18:14

In the link posted by Maryz around 2pm, JustineMumsnet said that suicide note threads would be moved to the MH section by MNHQ if the thread was reported. This was said back in 2008, was that decision reversed? Because the recent thread was left in Chat after MNHQ became aware of its existence.

blossommy · 22/10/2014 18:23

I had severe PND in the early days of Mumsnet and received invaluable help. Few thoughts:

  • there sometimes seems to be an assumption that RL help is readily available. Widespread news articles this week highlighted the fact that resources are still woefully inadequate. In some parts of the country crisis support is virtually non existent. And the very nature of depressive illness can mean that people can feel desperately isolated from their loved ones in RL.
  • Someone on another thread posted a reminder about the guy who (via a MIND appeal) was finally able to thank the stranger who talked to him on Waterloo Bridge. His kindness saved his life.
  • The pragmatic support of the Samaritans can be life saving for some - but can be too 'detached' for others.
  • Many different things can be triggering (including this thread in 'site stuff' itself.)
  • The samaritans guidelines are v important (particularly around 'methods') There is significant evidence around the risks of 'copy cat' suicides. Certain tabloid papers dont seem to appreciate this yet.
FatalCabbage · 22/10/2014 18:34

When I was recently psychotic and suffering suicide ideation and intrusive thoughts about death, the support immediately available to me was being put on the CBT waiting list, which is 18-24m long.

After a previous (serious but foiled) suicide attempt, I was given an emergency psychiatric appointment ... six months later. The A&E doctor told me I was wasting his time.

I refuse counselling now after my rape counsellor told my DH during a joint session that he should stop taking no for an answer.

Help available if you ask for it? Don't make me fucking laugh.

I think the "I am in crisis - talk to me" threads have value, but should perhaps be clearly titled and/or restricted/moved to a particular topic so those who are vulnerable to triggers can passively avoid them.

I assume MNHQ will want to restrict or prohibit posts giving details of suicide/self-harm methods?

FWIW I think the Netmums model of having trained people is a bad one. It gives them a false air of authority. At least here we are all declaring our ignorance.

nethunsreject · 22/10/2014 18:43

Cinnabar, I am sorry for your loss :-(, and thank you, I got your sincerity :-).
I think my concern is that there will be a line drawn somewhere essentially prohibiting posters from declaring suicidal intent and I am not sure this is a good thing.

If you suspect a troll, report it. I think it should be left at that.

nethunsreject · 22/10/2014 18:44

Blossom and cabbage, great posts

ChillingGrinBloodLover · 22/10/2014 19:19

From JustineMNHQ on a previous thread.

We don’t, however, think that it would be right to pull these threads. The argument that Mumsnet is not real life so not the place to air real life problems, even ones as serious as suicide, seems not quite right to us. As others have said Mumsnet is a community of real-life people where support and advice is routinely sought and offered and it’s not surprising that it spills over into the difficult bits of life too. And whilst in many ways we’d rather it didn’t in the instant of suicide – we’d rather of course that folk didn’t ever feel suicidal and that if they did they would instead use “real life” professionals for support and that the support they got was immediate and fantastic - given that it occasionally does, we are where we are and we have a lot of sympathy for the position that those who want offer support, ought to be able to be so. What’s more we can’t actually imagine pulling the plug on these threads – apart from the practicalities of it – what if it’s late and no one’s watching at HQ, at which point do you pull it – the sheer callousness of curtailing a conversation when there are folk who are willing and able to lend and ear to someone’s cry for help seems all wrong to us

I agree with her and I don't see why we are revisiting this, nothing has changed.

ChillingGrinBloodLover · 22/10/2014 19:29

heartisaspade

I have no idea why Maryz would ask you to take part of my post on one thread and post about it on another thread, it's really not the done thing for a very good reason.

However, if you are going to copy parts of my posts & post them on a different thread, then would you at least have the decency not to take them out of context & link to the thread you lifted part of a post from.

LilAnnieAmphetamine · 22/10/2014 19:33

When its late and no-one is watching at HQ'

If you aren't going to actually change your policies regarding threads about suicidal ideation, there needs to be somebody watching.

THIS is a big part of the problem. A lack of accountability.

Maryz · 22/10/2014 19:43

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Maryz · 22/10/2014 19:44

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Maryz · 22/10/2014 19:53

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heartisaspade · 22/10/2014 20:48

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northernlurker · 22/10/2014 21:48

I am really alaramed to read repeated posts saying effectively that suicide threads should stay on this site because support is not available out there. That's a very dangerous notion. The posters and moderators of this site CANNOT provide such support. If you are not happy with the provision of mental health services in your area then speak to your local authorities, your MP, local mental health charities. Do not expect that mumsnet or sites like this can ever fill such a gap. It's simply not going to happen and it puts other posters and readers at risk.

fluffydressinggown · 22/10/2014 21:57

northerlurker I think you do make an important point - RL support is always more important, but it can be hard to access and I think it is naive to suggest that it is as black and white as MN or RL support.

I think suicide support threads should be allowed, suicide notes deleted.

IPityThePontipines · 22/10/2014 22:54

For all the effort MNHQ goes into building their brand, it's amazing this issue still hasn't been resolved.

If MN is linked to an actual suicide, the fallout would be huge. Not all publicity is good publicity.

The research and guidelines are already up there and have been linked upthread. Deleting suicide threads would be the best way of protecting all MN's users.

By the by, it is hugely frustrating how difficult it is to get actual parenting advice on here these days. There's so little traffic on those threads. Once, a thread on nappy rash would get loads of replies, not now. Yes, people can search old threads, but it's not the same as active posts on a forum.

ChillingGrinBloodLover · 22/10/2014 22:55

northernlurker

Why are you completely ignoring all of the posters who have said MN has helped them when they have posted in desperation? Some of them have even linked to their 'suicide note' threads and yet you still say 'Posters cannot provide such support' - well you are wrong, they have. For starters read the one Keema linked to.

RL support is all good and well, but it's frequently NOT available, as many posters have explained. If everyone who needed help waited for RL services to be available then ... well, then I hate to think.

People need to stop shouting over the top of people saying they have been helped.