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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MN hq, In light of recent postings on various parts of the site, can we please have an all-round discussion around conduct, authenticity and where we, the users stand?

252 replies

WannaBe · 21/10/2014 14:14

It’s fairly evident that there has been an increased influx of threads perceived not to be genuine of late. It has got to a point where people are hiding certain sections of the boards, sections which should be there to offer support but which are actually becoming a bit of a breeding ground for highly emotive threads which, after a day or two, turn out not to be genuine and then disappear only to be replaced by another one of the same type.

The problem with this is that there seem to be more “what happened to x thread?” posts on those boards now than threads themselves, which has totally taken away the supportive element to certain parts of the site.

This has come to a bit of a head last night because an extremely sensitive thread has been closed due to doubts about its authenticity, but the thread itself is still there for anyone to see, but subsequent discussion about the thread in question has been deleted due to it being “a taat.”

I appreciate that it’s not always possible to know whether a thread is genuine and that sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.

I also appreciate that we as grown adults are responsible for our own reactions to what we read online and that we should never share more than we can afford to lose.

But in the real world you know that it’s not always that simple. Because people do read threads and do identify with them on a personal level, or empathise with an op, and feel the need to offer support. And when it turns out those threads are not genuine, people feel as if they have needlessly offered of themselves to support someone whose situation was never real.

My personal view is that certain threads shouldn’t be allowed to stand regardless. Threads such as suicide ones where posters are neither emotionally equipped or professionally qualified to deal with someone on the end of a keyboard. There are numerous support sources out there for people with such severe mh issues that they feel their only hope is suicide. MN is IMO not nor should it be considered to be one of them.

The reality is that we are a parenting forum. Many parents will go through other issues such as mh issues, but in truth mn’ers cannot be all things to all people, and removing a suicide thread does not mean that mn is an unsupportive environment, it simply means that mn is not equipped to deal with a suicidal poster and feels that they would benefit from professional help. In addition to this, removing such a thread protects those posters who have either had similar thoughts, or have personal experience of suicide, and at the same time reduces the types of topics which people can post vampiric threads about.

Added to that, if a thread is considered to not be genuine and is deleted, removing discussion of it will not take away the thought of it, and the more threads are deleted with discussion being stifled, the more resentful posters will become, and the less likely to post on discussion threads.

People want to talk about threads. Not least because most people are here because they enjoy being here, and feel they offer something when posting in support. If you take that away from people by stifling discussion (however unpalatable some of that discussion is), people will start to go elsewhere, or simply not post anywhere.

In addition, if you refuse to discuss suspected troll threads, leave emotive but locked threads on the boards, people will just continue their increased belief that there are more trolls than regulars and will see mn as a non worthwhile place to post. A fantacist’s corner, as it were. Is that really how you want mn to be perceived? Because atm it seems like it is a novel writer’s paradise on relationships with a touch of bitching thrown in for good measure on ibu.

OP posts:
Iwantmyparcel · 21/10/2014 17:03

Tell me it wasn't ?

Thurlow · 21/10/2014 17:03

I worry about the amount of posters who are potentially entirely fictional. You've no way of knowing. It would be easy to join and spend years with a fictional life, a fictional family, with occasional escalating crises. Maybe at some point it would all start to fall apart, but I'm sure there are plenty of people living whole second lives on forums like this.

Nothing you can do about it, though.

Thurlow · 21/10/2014 17:04

Iwant, I don't know, I saw the thread when it started but I don't know anything really about it, and am making assumptions (hopefully someone else can tell me I've jumped to the wrong conclusion)

QuintessentiallyGhoulish · 21/10/2014 17:04

Well said Wannabee!

But the thing is, people dont really give a shit, I dont think. They post pleasantries etc, to be part of the drama. Or to feel they make a difference.

Either that, or it hits too close to home.

Greythorne · 21/10/2014 17:09

There's a massive clue when someone is claiming to be suicidal and about to kill themselves and suddenly their DH comes on and starts posting.

I mean, really?

Your wife has just admitted she's close to death and you take the time to update 600 anonymous mins betters whilst simultaneously calling a MH crisis team?

ArsenicChaseScream · 21/10/2014 17:10

If we discuss the questions (and eyebrows) that have been raised about any specific thread (or the inconsistencies/reasons) we will get this thread deleted as a TAAT too.

WannaBe · 21/10/2014 17:13

"There's lots of topics that could be served better with RL help. Domestic violence, health concerns, special needs. Still people post here first a lot of time for reassurance and support."

But most of those topics, while better dealt with in rl, are not topics which need to be dealt with in the here and now iyswim.

There are of course exceptions even there, such as someone posting that their child is choking for instance, in which case of course they should be ringing an ambulance not posting on the bloody internet! or if someone is posting that their h is downstairs smashing up the kitchen and they are terrified in the bedroom then rl support really is the only way to go and by no means should an op be encouraged to stay online for updates/support.

But concerns about sn/health/dv can be dealt with in the longer term by pointing the op in the direction of the relevant professionals where they might seek advice/help.

But a thread saying someone is going to kill themselves tonight really is not best served on an open forum where there is no control over who posts on it. If someone really is intent on killing themselves no poster is going to talk them out of it. But equally there's no way to stop people posting "oh ffs just go and get on with it," followed by a hundred posts telling the negative respondant what a c* they are, which is entirely possible as well.

OP posts:
Thurlow · 21/10/2014 17:13

That's the difficulty isn't it, Arsenic? Sometimes you need to refer to a particular thread in order to discuss the overall picture of MN. It's difficult.

ArkhamOffett · 21/10/2014 17:18

There's also the question of what the OP is expecting if genuine. They may have seen threads running to many pages with all the supportive messages.

If they themselves don't get that then that might be a factor in deciding that their view of themselves as 'worthless' is true.

A ban on immediate suicide threats would be the best thing, before someone real does do it, because it's only a matter of time before that happens.

northernlurker · 21/10/2014 17:21

You don't need a history of MH issues to access emergency services. All you need is the impetus to ask for that help and yes that's very hard for some people. My point is though that asking here advances that person very little and in effect distracts them from those other sources of help. Yes there are plenty of posts directing them towards Samaritans but there are also lots offering sympathy and personal stories. It's pretty seductive but it can go so wrong. Whereas - if the thread was deleted with an email to the poster they could still be signposted to RL help but without the over-involvement of well meaning but mostly unskilled 'virtual' people and without the temporary cushioning effect of a 'support' thread.

theonlygothinthevillage · 21/10/2014 17:21

Trolls often play the long game, for example keeping a number of log-ins in reserve to use at a future date, as well as the ones who are genuine posters who like to troll from time to time.

I'm pretty sure that MNHQ are able to tell when various accounts are being started/accessed from a single IP address, so I imagine that this gets flagged up pretty quickly. Also, I realise that joining date is not going to be an infallible guide to who is a troll and who isn't, but it would be a useful tool in many cases, and could also help discourage people from joining purely to post a tall story.

I worry about the amount of posters who are potentially entirely fictional. You've no way of knowing. It would be easy to join and spend years with a fictional life, a fictional family, with occasional escalating crises.

No doubt. I think the sensible approach here is not to worry about them unless they start causing trouble. Quite a few people do this in real life!

nethunsreject · 21/10/2014 17:25

I do understand people being utterly pissed off and not knowing what to do or where they stand but, as someone who has recently got support when at my lowest and when suicidal from this forum, I'd be gutted if mn became yet another place where suicide is not allowed to be talked about.

Ffs, there are already enough myths and lack of knowledge about what is a common problem that to wilfully ignore it and make it a no go area would just add to the shame surrounding this issue and mental health in general.

nethunsreject · 21/10/2014 17:27

And fwiw I suspect most people with experience of or in mh would have kept away from that thread

AnyFucker · 21/10/2014 17:27

On the recent suicide thread, he original post where "he" details that he found "her" hanging was in there initially and then edited out by HQ at a later time. Not before lots of people had seen it, though. When it gets to the point of editing posts it is no longer a self moderating site and the whole ethos is lost.

theonlygothinthevillage · 21/10/2014 17:31

Okay, look, I know I might get laughed off the thread for suggesting this, but ... I've noticed that, when someone posts a desperate looking thread on Netmums, the admins often post a reply saying that they are going to get one of their trained counsellors to come and post on the thread. This might work on MN better than simply banning/removing suicide threads: perhaps HQ could post a link to the MH stuff and say that someone qualified will be along soon, BUT in the meantime lock the thread to stop other MN'ers from posting replies. That way, the OP (and anyone in a similar situation who finds the thread) gets some advice from a trained person.

WannaBe · 21/10/2014 17:31

"And fwiw I suspect most people with experience of or in mh would have kept away from that thread" but that's just the thing, many people with experience of mh do post on those threads because they can often identify with them.

And if people with experience "in" mh (implying professionals I assume?) would keep away from it then that's all the more reason not to allow those types of threads to stand, isn't it? Because then that means that no-one posting on it has experience to be able to deal with the op in the correct way...

OP posts:
northernlurker · 21/10/2014 17:32

Nethuns - what is being talked about here is not outlawing references to suicide. The issue is only with those threads started by an OP to dicuss the fact that they plan to kill themselves that day/night. It's not about hiding suicide away or shaming desperate people. It's about protecting everybody who uses this site for support and ensuring the best avenues are followed.

AnyFucker · 21/10/2014 17:34

We don't have trained professionals on MN (or at least not posting in that capacity, and actually they shouldn't even if they wanted to) and that is the whole point

ArsenicChaseScream · 21/10/2014 17:34

Yep Thurlow it sure is

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 17:36

I am convinced that the site needs to be organised differently. I don't think that you should get 'active' or 'last 15mins' etc. People wouldn't get onto subjects if they have to seek them out. You scroll down and pick up subjects that you wouldn't normally comment on.
Sensitive subjects like mental health, relationships, bereavement would be tucked away and could have a warning about vulnerable people.
I hate scrolling down and see someone's child has died next to someone moaning about MIL or wondering which oven cleaner to use. It then collects lots of people who can only say 'sorry for your loss'-which post after post must make you feel worse.
It should be very clear which part is debate, which is just fun and which is support.

BalloonSlayer · 21/10/2014 17:36

Oh that one. I felt really bad about doubting that.

The thing is that a thread like that could be not actually true, but it could be that someone was still feeling pretty bad, and thought "would anyone even care if I . . . " and posting to see, if anyone did care. So it could be that although the thread was a lie, it was of some help . . . < tails off weakly >

AnyFucker · 21/10/2014 17:37

There is currently an active thread made by someone who "attempted suicide last night". That should be ok, as far as I can see (although I haven't followed it).

theonlygothinthevillage · 21/10/2014 17:38

We don't have trained professionals on MN (or at least not posting in that capacity, and actually they shouldn't even if they wanted to) and that is the whole point

Why is that the whole point? Why would it be a bad thing to have trained 'official' people to talk to desperate posters, given that there seems to be a demand for this?

(Asking politely and just out of interest, BTW!)

AnyFucker · 21/10/2014 17:41

Then that would make it an entirely different site. And would probably require a fee to be a member.

SlowlorisIncognito · 21/10/2014 17:41

Before posting this I just want to say I know suicide is an emotive topic, and I appologise if anything in my post is upsetting for anyone. Flowers

The thing is that the poster who starts a MH crisis thread is not the only one affected by the thread. For some vulnerable people, reading a thread that mentions an actual intention to commit suicide (particularly if a method is mentioned, and I think MNHQ do edit this out of posts) is actively dangerous. The thread is also likely to be upsetting/triggering for many other posters. It is easy to say "hide the thread" but sadly people with MH are not always capable of acting in their own best interests.

Most forums do not allow posts to stand when a poster in in immediate danger of harming themselves. There is a distinction between "I am having suicidal thoughts" and "I am harming myself/about to harm myself right now". Normally, while the latter are allowed but carefully monitored, the former are deleted with the user pointed towards MH crisis services.

It is also worth noting that while some posters receive excellent support via the forums, there is always a risk someone will say the "wrong" thing or engage in the wrong way, and that will become actively harmful to the poster.

Also, professionals and volunteers who deal with suicidal people normally have access to counseling, as it is of course a hugely distressing subject. Due to the way mumsnet works, it's very likely that people could start posting on a thread, and part way through be confronted with something very distressing- e.g. someone describing how they plan to commit suicide. They will have no support dealing with this afterwards, even though it is likely to be very distressing.

I have also been on a forum where a member committed suicide after posting a suicide note style thread on the forum. It was hugely upsetting and distressing for so many posters and the fall out from the event was awful.

Of course people should be able to seek support on mumsnet, but there is a point after which the discussion is likely to be harmful to everyone involved. Most forums acknowledge this, and I think mumsnet should too.