FWR split continued

[RebeccaMumsnet]

We have decided to start a new thread about this as the other thread was near capacity and taking a while to load.

Here is Justine's post from earlier on

We can give a Radical Feminism topic a go if that's what people want and see if it works. Obviously we need to be crystal clear that no one is obliged to post in one particular place and no one should feel excluded from any topic but we could test it out, and see if it helps resolve tensions. We'll do that in the next few days.

There are a couple of other things to think about as well.

First, those who come onto FWR to derail and inflame. We acknowledge that we have been too slow in the past to spot these posters for what they were. We're sorry about that and hope we're a lot quicker at dealing with them now. We're all for opinions but we do draw the line at posters whose only obvious intent is to goad.

And secondly, this idea that FWR can be an unwelcoming place to those who aren't following the 'party line'. Judging by posts on recent threads and by our inbox this is a view of a significant number of Mumsnetters and obviously that's not a healthy situation. Mumsnet is a place for discussion and for diverse opinion and it's the exchange of ideas and tolerance of differing opinions that makes it the board it is.

We do hope threads like this help to clear the air a bit and remind everyone that, whatever the differences of opinion, the FWR board will only ever be the stimulating, thought-provoking, enriching place we'd all like it to be if people feel that they can express themselves without being jumped on.

Please do continue to let us know your thoughts.

I think the problem is that the 'radFems' feel it's their duty/remit to educate others. And it's well established that this puts a lot of people off the FWR boards.

It's really not about them needing their own space free from liberal feminists. It's the oppersite.

Support, theory and cafe Yes yes yes! I'm outa here, hope this can be resolved soon.

I second all three.

So would the idea be that if someone in the "Cafe" (dear lord) wrote:

I don't understand why girls go out half naked and get completely drunk. It's asking for trouble, no wonder they get attacked, they are sending out the wrong signals.

They would get an answer that said, You know, a lot of people think that, but if you think about it, it's nonsense, no one ASKS to be raped do they? Rapists rape because that's what they do, no one that is raped is in any way responsible for it etc etc

But if it was in Theory they'd get: Tha t is a rape myth. You are a rape apologist and your view has no place on thsi section.

How would you stop cross-pollination?

@HesterBurnitall

Justine, could I ask again that MNHQ look at the many non-rad-fem, lurkery types like me (though this has all pulled me out of lurking and on to the boards) who have said they don't feel intimidated or excluded and allow our opinions some weight as well?

Yes Hester, I'm absolutely sure this doesn't apply to everyone at all, but there a sizeable number of people who are fearful of posting on the FWR board because of what they believe is an aggressive orthodoxy prevailing and when that happens on boards, as it does from time to time, (The Doghouse, Relationships are fairly recent egs) we generally do feel we need to intervene because it's not what MN is about.

How and what we do about it is moot and open to trial/question/debate but the status quo, from our perspective, isn't working for enough people as to be a problem.

dittany, the whole FWR board is a place for discussions about feminism not a place for feminists. The support section would be great, that is where the real work of supporting other women can be done.

I suggest you give dittany her patriarchy/misogyny section and leave the rest of it alone. Just call it that Patriarchy/Misogyny.

Why not try it?

Mr Gin, it may put some off, it's interesting and stimulating to others.

Can someone, anyone, explain why the rad-fems are seen as shutting down debate but those who are actively seeking their muzzling are not seen as shutting down debate?

Oh yes, Hully... That's exactly how FWR engages...

@dittany

Actually Justine I don't think a name like that will attract trolls, because it will be about Patriarchy/Misogyny.

Trolls are attracted to invading what look like nominally feminist spaces (although I do understand that FWR isn't, it's something else) therefore a Patriarchy/Misogyny name doesn't give them much to work with. The name Feminism has always been difficult because feminists can't help but assume it's for feminism and similarly the trolls do too. As you've explained it's about feminism, so a different kind of name would reflect that approach.

I don't think for example F4J would have posted in a section Patriarchy/Misogyny. I think they'd have found it very difficult to justify going into a place called that.

Well I respect your opinion but I don't agree. That said, I do see that a RadFem topic could be equally targeted.

What Hully just said.

In fact what Hully has said in every single post in this new thread.

no no Frothy, sorry if I wasn't clear, I was trying to illustrate the type of hardcore robust answer that puts people off they say, with the lite and gentle one.

@MiniTheMinx

dittany, the whole FWR board is a place for discussions about feminism not a place for feminists. The support section would be great, that is where the real work of supporting other women can be done.

If we had a support for women who have suffered rape and dv section, do we think it should be in Feminism category?

Can we just be clear?

No one wants to muzzle etc the rad fems. This is all about personalities, not politics. Somehow it got said it was about the radfems, I think as a way of avoiding the truth - that it is about personalities.

My point was, people generally don't get the "hardcore" answer you suggested.

A change to theory/cafe wouldn't mean they would, either.

dittany, what about if you had patriarchy/misogyny in OTBT to avoid potential trolls? Would that then give you the topic you want, and allay MN's reasonable fears of being emaile dabout trolls every five minutes?

Yes women would seek support in FWR if they were looking for women centred support, they were looking for a feminist perspective on their situation.

With that, I really am off

no not always, of course frothy, but it is that type of answer that has caused the complaints.

Ok I'm very sorry but I'm going to have to check out for a bit. OliviaMN is on tonight though, so we're all good.

Please do continue to let us know your thoughts and ideas.

I would think having a support section would be helpful. It makes it clear that it's for support so identifying trolls would be easier.

The assumption that any non supportive post is a troll could be taken as fact.

Doesn't a section about 'doing' feminism as suggested above already exist re activism

oh poor poor Olivia

'Oh please, please, please can't we just have Proper Feminists and Improper Feminists?'

Gets my vote!