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FWR split continued

23 replies

RebeccaMumsnet · 29/06/2012 17:11

We have decided to start a new thread about this as the other thread was near capacity and taking a while to load.

Here is Justine's post from earlier on

We can give a Radical Feminism topic a go if that's what people want and see if it works. Obviously we need to be crystal clear that no one is obliged to post in one particular place and no one should feel excluded from any topic but we could test it out, and see if it helps resolve tensions. We'll do that in the next few days.

There are a couple of other things to think about as well.

First, those who come onto FWR to derail and inflame. We acknowledge that we have been too slow in the past to spot these posters for what they were. We're sorry about that and hope we're a lot quicker at dealing with them now. We're all for opinions but we do draw the line at posters whose only obvious intent is to goad.

And secondly, this idea that FWR can be an unwelcoming place to those who aren't following the 'party line'. Judging by posts on recent threads and by our inbox this is a view of a significant number of Mumsnetters and obviously that's not a healthy situation. Mumsnet is a place for discussion and for diverse opinion and it's the exchange of ideas and tolerance of differing opinions that makes it the board it is.

We do hope threads like this help to clear the air a bit and remind everyone that, whatever the differences of opinion, the FWR board will only ever be the stimulating, thought-provoking, enriching place we'd all like it to be if people feel that they can express themselves without being jumped on.

Please do continue to let us know your thoughts.

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 17:32

@FrothyDragon

No. Just... No...

We do NOT want a "Radical Feminism" topic. We get enough troll attacks as it is. Can we refrain from painting rad fems with neon targets, please?

If we do it, it doesn't have to be called Radical Feminism and it could be in OTBT as someone suggested on the other thread. But if folks have other solutions to the FWR board issues, which, let's be fair, have been around for a while please do suggest them.

Someone also suggested temporary bans for intolerance of other opinion... would that be a solution? Is there actually a solution within one board? We really don't know and would love to hear what you think but going along as we have isn't really working for lots of Mumsnetters.

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 17:39

@FrothyDragon

Thanks for the new section, MNHQ. Can safely say we've been thrown to the wolves.

Thanks.

We can change the name / take it out of search/ or even get rid. We are merely trying something - the last thing we want, we can assure you, is to attract trolls.

If we keep it - should it be out of search/ active convs like otbt? if not what names would work better. or would you rather just not have it but everyone accept that a wider set of opinion is tolerated on the FWR board? Really we are open to suggestions...

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 17:42

@Hullygully

Does anyone mind if I turn this into a play?

What would you call it, though?

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 17:49

@vezzie

Justine, I find that very offensive. If you want to call it "more robust discourse feminist section (caution: you might be told you are wrong") then that would be one thing. But suggesting that radical feminists (or any people who have any set of beliefs) have to be fenced off because they are intrinsically savages is so muddle-headed (see my earlier post, 17:18). I'm personally offended by this new section.

As said a few times we are looking for a solution to something that many Mumsnetters have flagged as a problem. Granted not everyone thinks it's a problem but lots do, enough to prompt us to try and do something about it - the alternative is to ban or disallow posters and/or posts that prevent diverse opinion in this section. Really, we can't see any other way forward.

Besides, I really don't see how creating a topic is fencing anyone off and have been at pains to say that there are no fences! But if that's not the solution then tell us what you think is?

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 18:00

@dittany

Did Mumsnet comment on the idea of a Patriarchy/Misogyny section.

What was the view on that?

If you think Radical Feminist is going to attract trolls...

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 18:04

@VictorGollancz

And yellowraincoat, it is about the rape myths for me. It's bad, really bad, where we're in a situation in which rape myths are posted on a section that is known for its support of rape survivors. The 'anti-feminist' stuff isn't great either, but I would hope feminists of all flavours would unite in the face of rape myths, misogyny and sexism.

Then we can all go back to calling each other 'anti-feminist' (a term that I've done a search for an really doesn't seem to crop up that often)...

Should we perhaps then have a rape survivors topic (could have another name) where it would be completely clear that folks have to tread very sensitively?

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 18:11

@dittany

I had a proponent of "PARD" telling me she was going to make a point of going after every single post I made because she disagreed so strongly with me.

At that point I left Mumsnet for a few months. Came back under a namechange, and had a nice quietish time. Under my usual name I probably can't post here any more.

So who is unwelcome. Now another person who personally attacked me (in a very nasty way - her post deleted, mine deleted for even mentioning it) has had their suggestion approved and the radical feminists are being sent off the field.

Off which field - it's all one field isn't it?
Dittany, honestly, do you reject the premise that some people (not talking about trolls and f4j here but regular Mumsnetters) feel unwelcome/ scared off/ whatever? If so why are people saying it to us and on the boards? Are they just wrong and in fact they and their views welcomed? Or are they/ their views unwelcome?

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 18:12

@catsrus

Sorry MNHQ - can i add my name to the list of "appalled" at the creation of a Radical Feminist section that none of the radical feminists wanted Shock - and I speak as a wishy washy feminist.

I like the "cafe" idea - for light chat and socialising, non-scary for newbies of all shades.

I think you are not alone in thinking it's not a runner. So, what shall we do instead?

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 18:13

@EclecticShock

Great idea Oldlady.... I think Feminist theory could work.

Sounds like a runner? Any other thoughts on this one?

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 18:21

@HesterBurnitall

Justine, could I ask again that MNHQ look at the many non-rad-fem, lurkery types like me (though this has all pulled me out of lurking and on to the boards) who have said they don't feel intimidated or excluded and allow our opinions some weight as well?

Yes Hester, I'm absolutely sure this doesn't apply to everyone at all, but there a sizeable number of people who are fearful of posting on the FWR board because of what they believe is an aggressive orthodoxy prevailing and when that happens on boards, as it does from time to time, (The Doghouse, Relationships are fairly recent egs) we generally do feel we need to intervene because it's not what MN is about.

How and what we do about it is moot and open to trial/question/debate but the status quo, from our perspective, isn't working for enough people as to be a problem.

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 18:24

@dittany

Actually Justine I don't think a name like that will attract trolls, because it will be about Patriarchy/Misogyny.

Trolls are attracted to invading what look like nominally feminist spaces (although I do understand that FWR isn't, it's something else) therefore a Patriarchy/Misogyny name doesn't give them much to work with. The name Feminism has always been difficult because feminists can't help but assume it's for feminism and similarly the trolls do too. As you've explained it's about feminism, so a different kind of name would reflect that approach.

I don't think for example F4J would have posted in a section Patriarchy/Misogyny. I think they'd have found it very difficult to justify going into a place called that.

Well I respect your opinion but I don't agree. That said, I do see that a RadFem topic could be equally targeted.

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 18:26

@MiniTheMinx

dittany, the whole FWR board is a place for discussions about feminism not a place for feminists. The support section would be great, that is where the real work of supporting other women can be done.

If we had a support for women who have suffered rape and dv section, do we think it should be in Feminism category?

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 18:29

Ok I'm very sorry but I'm going to have to check out for a bit. OliviaMN is on tonight though, so we're all good.

Please do continue to let us know your thoughts and ideas.

JustineMumsnet · 29/06/2012 18:35

@dittany

Could I also point that for all the propaganda mainly from people who toe the sex industry positive line that FWR is scary and dangerous for newbies, there are a whole lot of feminist conversations of all stripes and at all levels of knowledge of feminism happening right now in FWR. E.g. some of todays:

Ok, very quickly, and sorry to not address all your points but the crux is this: we don't believe it's "propaganda" from "a few people who toe the sex industry positive line". Not from where we are sitting and the reports and posts we see and have seen over the last 12 months or so. That's it in a nutshell. Carrying on as we have been isn't going to be a runner.

(I'll be back on later after a long drive up the motorway)

OliviaLMumsnet · 29/06/2012 19:05

@JustineMumsnet

Ok I'm very sorry but I'm going to have to check out for a bit. OliviaMN is on tonight though, so we're all good.

I am here btw just chucking chillun in bath and stocking up on gin

OliviaLMumsnet · 29/06/2012 19:38

C'mon people. I don't want to have to link to the guidelines.

Let's try and sort this out.

@PlentyOfPubeGardens

Just another vote for three sections -

cafe - general discussion including rolling newbie question threads

feminist support - not just for rape or dv survivors but for anyone looking for woman-centred support for a problem.

feminist theory - I think this would really help people not to take things so personally. Could it be merged with feminist books?

Thoughts on this please.

OliviaLMumsnet · 29/06/2012 22:51

Hello
Sorry not to have been posting on here more this evening, got interrupted by some puerile trolls elsewhere.
Thanks again for your suggestions - and do keep 'em coming.
MNHQ

OliviaLMumsnet · 30/06/2012 00:02

@dittany

Or hitting report post on fellow feminists for that matter. Justine, you asked earlier why you were getting complaints. I'm sure some of them are sincere, but there's also a big troll hunting group on Facebook which coordinates reporting - descending on to threads to harass, and also likes to hit report post on posters they don't like. One of their tactics is to needle and when a person bites, go into mass report mode.

Mass report makes no difference to us fwiw.
One report or one hundred - we take each report on a case by case basis.

Justine has said and the rest of us at the Towers agree that we are open to suggestions and want to try and ensure that conversation is kept flowing as much as we can.

OliviaLMumsnet · 30/06/2012 00:02

@Alameda

but it will be trolled to death

which reminds me, thanks mnhq for getting tougher on that

NP
Grin

OliviaLMumsnet · 30/06/2012 00:09

FWIW one thing we are happy to do at HQ is put our hands up and change things if we have made a wrong call. Please do keep your suggestions coming.

OliviaLMumsnet · 30/06/2012 00:13

@Alameda

(on other hand am not in favour of such tough rules that I fall foul of them easily too Confused)

Our rules are fairly simple though.
Attack the argument not the poster.
Don't break the law.

As for how it will be decided, we'll keep reading for the time being.

OliviaLMumsnet · 30/06/2012 11:40

@ScroobiousPip

'Save The World' Smile

Don't we need to save the cheerleader first?!

OliviaLMumsnet · 30/06/2012 11:58

Sorry. Probably not helpful Blush and yes, it's from

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