FWR split continued

[RebeccaMumsnet]

We have decided to start a new thread about this as the other thread was near capacity and taking a while to load.

Here is Justine's post from earlier on

We can give a Radical Feminism topic a go if that's what people want and see if it works. Obviously we need to be crystal clear that no one is obliged to post in one particular place and no one should feel excluded from any topic but we could test it out, and see if it helps resolve tensions. We'll do that in the next few days.

There are a couple of other things to think about as well.

First, those who come onto FWR to derail and inflame. We acknowledge that we have been too slow in the past to spot these posters for what they were. We're sorry about that and hope we're a lot quicker at dealing with them now. We're all for opinions but we do draw the line at posters whose only obvious intent is to goad.

And secondly, this idea that FWR can be an unwelcoming place to those who aren't following the 'party line'. Judging by posts on recent threads and by our inbox this is a view of a significant number of Mumsnetters and obviously that's not a healthy situation. Mumsnet is a place for discussion and for diverse opinion and it's the exchange of ideas and tolerance of differing opinions that makes it the board it is.

We do hope threads like this help to clear the air a bit and remind everyone that, whatever the differences of opinion, the FWR board will only ever be the stimulating, thought-provoking, enriching place we'd all like it to be if people feel that they can express themselves without being jumped on.

Please do continue to let us know your thoughts.

And yellowraincoat, it is about the rape myths for me. It's bad, really bad, where we're in a situation in which rape myths are posted on a section that is known for its support of rape survivors. The 'anti-feminist' stuff isn't great either, but I would hope feminists of all flavours would unite in the face of rape myths, misogyny and sexism.

Then we can all go back to calling each other 'anti-feminist' (a term that I've done a search for an really doesn't seem to crop up that often)...

YY to vezzie.

How about, Women Beware Women?

Or has that been done?

People get told they're pro porn if they don't 100% hate porn.

Anyway, once again I'm off, this topic could go on and on and on.

Absolutely agree Victor

Accepting the opinion of others doesn't mean not countering them with your own, different opinion, YR. there are many strands of feminism that are strongly anti-porn. To many feminists to support porn is at odds with feminism. Expecting that they won't say this doesn't constitute encouraging a wider range of opinions.

All of this is about one thing: politeness.

That's it.

Victor, it's not a rape survivor support site though. It's a space to talk about feminism. A LOT of people believe rape myths and I see it as our duty as feminists to combat those myths by telling people what's what.

I KNOW it's shit, I don't like to read that crap either. But on the internet you're always going to get twats who believe shit.

Really off now.

When I was a small child and got into fights with my sister a lot, my mum didn't necessarily always believe the one who came running into the kitchen shouting, "mum, she did this to me! She's mean!" Certainly not if it was always the same one.
Just saying.

Anyone can say anything they want, who cares? Just do it politely. Why is that so hard??

I could politely point out that supporting prostitution is not pro-woman. I could garland it with smilies, hearts and flowers. I could put 'in my opinion' in massive letters.

There are still posters who would find this rude.

That's their right. It's not enough to split a board over though.

@vezzie

Justine, I find that very offensive. If you want to call it "more robust discourse feminist section (caution: you might be told you are wrong") then that would be one thing. But suggesting that radical feminists (or any people who have any set of beliefs) have to be fenced off because they are intrinsically savages is so muddle-headed (see my earlier post, 17:18). I'm personally offended by this new section.

As said a few times we are looking for a solution to something that many Mumsnetters have flagged as a problem. Granted not everyone thinks it's a problem but lots do, enough to prompt us to try and do something about it - the alternative is to ban or disallow posters and/or posts that prevent diverse opinion in this section. Really, we can't see any other way forward.

Besides, I really don't see how creating a topic is fencing anyone off and have been at pains to say that there are no fences! But if that's not the solution then tell us what you think is?

Why not leave it for a while and see what happens?

I don't think we need anything separate, what is wanted (according to the number of threads) are all things feminist being allowed to be discussed

Many, many posters have said they have learnt from the FWR section. Many people have also said that they don't like not being able to explore it and to be told they are doing it wrong

Non feminists or feminist lites are not trolls or derailers or anti feminist, there is a difference

Obvious trolls should be ignored

Posters who persistently break the guidelines - no matter what camp they fall in - should be put on temporary bans.

Victor - they wouldn't find it rude if it wasn't. Simple.

Justine, I can't supply a solution to a problem I can't see. You are saying you are hearing things from mumsnetters, but I don't have access to all that information.

If some mners are upset by certain styles of discourse, and you want to have different places with different tones, then be honest about that and call the different places things that make sense. What about rigorous debate fems v. fem-huns?

How about calling it "The Feminist Paddling Pool", make it a less intense area; not sure if you remember the general feminist chat thread that used to take place? Keep it along those lines, with the idea it's targeted more towards those who are new to the boards, or don't want to jump in with Rad/Sex Positive/Anarcha/Whatever brand of feminism you like... Keep it for those who don't want the more intense discussions, but still want to discuss feminism.

Hullygully, do you mean to be rude? Because I find your constant dictatorial banging on about a particular hegemony of discourse very rude, now.

JustineMumsnet: If the board has to split then surely there should be an enforced space for polite debate. Radical Feminist beliefs are not the problem here - and MNHQ knows that women have been targeted in real life over this. Let's not stick a bigger banner over any of us, please!

Won't people get round bans? I'm sure it's not unheard of for posters to have 2 mn registered accounts, although I don't personally agree with it.

I'm in favour of a split. But I agree with those who've said creating a 'Radical Feminism' topic is just an invitation to be trolled.

If there's to be a space for more knowledgeable, dedicated feminists to discuss stuff in a context where certain basic assumptions aren't up for discussion then it should be opt-in only, or OTBT stylee somehow. Otherwise it's just going to end up full of MRAs and schoolboys posting offensive crap.

Hully - I respectfully disagree with every fibre of my being.

The label is all wrong and will draw the wrong kind of attention to it. Plus it's exclusionary. I don't like to think of anyone being marginalised either.

Women and men who are new to feminism , who are interested in equality and women's rights need somewhere where they can post and discuss possibly without such an emphasis on theory and politics but this latest move is discriminatory.