FWR split continued

[RebeccaMumsnet]

We have decided to start a new thread about this as the other thread was near capacity and taking a while to load.

Here is Justine's post from earlier on

We can give a Radical Feminism topic a go if that's what people want and see if it works. Obviously we need to be crystal clear that no one is obliged to post in one particular place and no one should feel excluded from any topic but we could test it out, and see if it helps resolve tensions. We'll do that in the next few days.

There are a couple of other things to think about as well.

First, those who come onto FWR to derail and inflame. We acknowledge that we have been too slow in the past to spot these posters for what they were. We're sorry about that and hope we're a lot quicker at dealing with them now. We're all for opinions but we do draw the line at posters whose only obvious intent is to goad.

And secondly, this idea that FWR can be an unwelcoming place to those who aren't following the 'party line'. Judging by posts on recent threads and by our inbox this is a view of a significant number of Mumsnetters and obviously that's not a healthy situation. Mumsnet is a place for discussion and for diverse opinion and it's the exchange of ideas and tolerance of differing opinions that makes it the board it is.

We do hope threads like this help to clear the air a bit and remind everyone that, whatever the differences of opinion, the FWR board will only ever be the stimulating, thought-provoking, enriching place we'd all like it to be if people feel that they can express themselves without being jumped on.

Please do continue to let us know your thoughts.

But wickety, a lot of the stuff in FWR doesn't come under MNHQ guidelines so reporting's no good - and a lot of it isn't trolling in the first place. Even in the last few days, we've had a few posters say 'I think feminism's stupid' (bad paraphrase again).

Fair enough if they think that, it's not trolling and they are at liberty to air their opinion - but it's not great if they keep on going in a longer, more involved thread. I think it's better to direct them to a more appropriate space and leave it at that.

You're assuming that to be feminist you have to agree with certain feminist theories... I don't agree.

But if someone says something like "feminism's stupid" I don't think you're ever going to convince them they're wrong. So why not just ignore it?

Agree that FWR is doing fine right now, and the Paddling Pool was a good idea.
I like those board ideas too.

Because it might be on a really inappropriate thread, yellow?

Someone said it on this thread (I think - it was one of the threads that isn't on FWR). Sure - no need for any response there.

But there's always at least one thread in which anti-woman sentiment would be teeth-clenchingly inappropriate. Reporting would be wrong, as they aren't a troll.

And hey, there's always a chance that, directed to a whole board of info, they might not find feminism stupid after all!

Like what though? Ignore them. They're not going to change their mind and life is short.

I mean, something like rape apologist on a rape support thread...no, that's not ok, but then it's also grounds for reporting, so I'd just do that.

Someone who is just trying to wind you up, or who you so wildly disagree with you can't take seriously, well, you're never going to change their mind.

"ou're assuming that to be feminist you have to agree with certain feminist theories... I don't agree"

To be a tory, I would first have to agree with their basic philosophies, I don't so I am not a tory. That's not to say that I disagree with EVERY policy.

When you say 'like what', do you mean what sort of place to send them?

I dunno, the paddling pool or somewhere.

I think FWR is rolling along fine. My post was just a train of thought in reply to cardgames: that perhaps a paddling pool thread would help with posters who have no interest in feminism and are just there on the wind up.

Ah, see I didn't know that rape myths were grounds for reporting yellow. I thought it was personal attack only, or breaking the law (and sexism isn't breaking the law, sadly).

Good to know though.

But the way to deal with rape apologists isn't usually to jump all over them (which is what happens) mostly it's ignorance - beating people up - figuratively - doesn't lead to them understanding.

""ou're assuming that to be feminist you have to agree with certain feminist theories... I don't agree"

To be a tory, I would first have to agree with their basic philosophies, I don't so I am not a tory. That's not to say that I disagree with EVERY policy."

Agree, feminism is a broad spectrum, Tory is one political viewpoint, labour or lib dem is another... I can be political and support feminism and not agree with one other political parties.

Actually it reminds me of my mother, she was one of strongest, most outspoken, independent women i know, she took no shit from anyone especially men & she brought me up to believe in myself as a women. She would say "Bloody bra burners, why don't they go and do the washing up" but when you spoke to her, it became obvious that she subscribed to the philosophies but you would have to unpick it all first.

There are few women who are "anti" women, to be so would be very strange indeed. However without reading the theory, we don't always know where to root our opinions and experiences. We have individual experience and we have collective consciousness, the two can be poles apart or much the same.

There are those who are ignorant, and they can be sent to a newbie faq thread. And then there are those who are blatantly anti-fem and/or wishes to upset people. It's those potential posters I'm concerned about.

As I said yesterday, DidI, I will applaud the PARD of anyone who engages at length to explain the harm of rape myths.

I don't, however, think that it's anyone's job to do that. We have the right not to hear rape myths. As I said yesterday, this does not mean I support personal attach but saying 'what you have said is anti-feminist/I'm calling you out on that/You need to know that is wrong', etc, is an ok response.

We wouldn't ask black people to ALWAYS engage with racists. I applaud anyone who does but it's not their job and their lack of engagement is not to blame for the existence of racism.

We should applaud PARD: but we should also understand that posters might not want to engage with rape myths. They might not be able to - they might be rape survivors for whom reading rape myths is triggering.

Being called out ain't nice but it's not the same level of harm as a rape victim being triggered.

In the politest manner (genuine) I don't think calling people out works - because it entrenches peoples views.

It doesn't change them - they may feel intimated into shutting up - but they still hold those views - possibly even more than they did before.

And Let's face it - a victim is as likely to be triggered by the "fight" that ensues from calling out as they are from a thoughtless comment. However well meant the calling out is.

Also in the politest manner: I see where you're coming from but honestly, if poster A posts a rape myth, poster B calls them out on it and poster A's response is 'piss off' or a list of reasons why poster B is wrong, then I am not overly concerned with poster A. I don't think people who are really invested in saying racist/sexist/homophobic things are that much fun.

I've been called out on things before and I went off and did some Googling. Usually the caller-out has been right.

If someone told me something I had said was well out of order (and this has happened - I said something that SCREAMED white privilege), my initial reaction would be/was 'shit, sorry'. And then I asked them why. And then I did some reading. And they were right!

My red-hot feelings of embarrassment at being told this fact is less important than me not being racist. And DEFINITELY less important than someone not suffering racism.

Yes, this is the way I feel, but it's also the way a lot of spaces (not necessarily feminist spaces) operate on the internet. PARD is applauded, calling-out is seen as a necessary thing. Seems v. sensible to me.

I don't agree. If someone's misogynist view goes completely unchallenged, that's more upsetting.

x-post!

DidI, I work on the principle that the caller-out is reasoned in their request, and that the poster who is called out doesn't start a fight.

I think we all need to start from the point that all posters are good people, and mean well - so if I was called out, it would be from another poster's genuine desire to a) stop me saying sexist things and b) stop me saying harmful things, rather than a desire to hurt my feelings.

Hurt feelings are likely to ensue, however, and that's always hard.

It's different ways for different people - I do a lot of challenging of rape myths (therapist says it's a form of self punishment and punishing the posters I am challenging), but I never call rape apologist, MRA, etc - because I don't think it works and I hate seeing fights on survivor threads (I'm excellent at blinding with stats and challenging inaction though).

But that's what works for me - it may not work for the next person.

Thanks. So will be off to fwr and the paddling pool. Sorry Alameda if I made you sceptical ( looked up the smiley below). Will return to lurking and reading and learning. Hope you can get this issue cleared up.
BW
Meals

Well, for me, 'rape apologist' would not be something involved in a calling-out.

I don't have a photographic memory and I was off FWR for quite a while but I only recall seeing 'rape apologist' used once on FWR, and that was in a very, very heated context (a poster appeared to be suggesting that two pre-teen girls were somehow responsible for initiating a sexual encounter: poster kept saying it despite being challenged in a variety of reasonable ways and was given a very hard time as a result).

Also, I've only seen MRA used after quite a bit of contact between posters. It's not something I can recall being used in response to someone's first post, though it's used more than rape apologist.

I've been avoiding feminism for a long time - it may well have changed - then there was a transgender thread that I felt I had to post on - and that thread reinforced my already formed views about people who "don't fit" there.

Perhaps I should give it another look see for a while.

yes, meals, have look at the paddling pool thread and have a read around the threads in the section. Hopefully see you there soon.