FWR split continued

[RebeccaMumsnet]

We have decided to start a new thread about this as the other thread was near capacity and taking a while to load.

Here is Justine's post from earlier on

We can give a Radical Feminism topic a go if that's what people want and see if it works. Obviously we need to be crystal clear that no one is obliged to post in one particular place and no one should feel excluded from any topic but we could test it out, and see if it helps resolve tensions. We'll do that in the next few days.

There are a couple of other things to think about as well.

First, those who come onto FWR to derail and inflame. We acknowledge that we have been too slow in the past to spot these posters for what they were. We're sorry about that and hope we're a lot quicker at dealing with them now. We're all for opinions but we do draw the line at posters whose only obvious intent is to goad.

And secondly, this idea that FWR can be an unwelcoming place to those who aren't following the 'party line'. Judging by posts on recent threads and by our inbox this is a view of a significant number of Mumsnetters and obviously that's not a healthy situation. Mumsnet is a place for discussion and for diverse opinion and it's the exchange of ideas and tolerance of differing opinions that makes it the board it is.

We do hope threads like this help to clear the air a bit and remind everyone that, whatever the differences of opinion, the FWR board will only ever be the stimulating, thought-provoking, enriching place we'd all like it to be if people feel that they can express themselves without being jumped on.

Please do continue to let us know your thoughts.

"educating absolutely everyone"

Thanks VG, humility at its best.

Beach -

I am also generally of the view that it is best to tough it out day to day. I don't think there should be a split.

But I think these threads have showed that lots of people lurkers, posters and MNHQ alike see a problem on the FWR board. Some others don't see a problem - but this does not break down clearly as a difference of opinion between radfems and others.

The answer can't just be put-up-or-shut-up.

Invading trolls aside, I think the problem is reflected (and in large part caused) by the culture of competitive offense taking, which I think we all have played a part in.

It has been mishandled by MNHQ who made a poorly thought through change then swanned off to watch the tennis left us to it.

I hope that when the dust has settled that the situation can be salvaged and improved by some kind of collective effort on the part of all-of-those-who-don't-want-anyone-to-fuck-off.

Maybe I am being over optimistic though...

...wrote that about 5 screens ago then went to put kids to bed. I see things have moved on...

Er, I am not in a core group of anything, nor am I a radical feminist.

And if you'll go back to yesterday you'll see that I was chatting away with a lot of posters about how we could all cut each other a bit of slack. Feminist anger is going to happen. People will disagree. There's a difference between feminists who happen to hold different views and posters who plaster the board with anti-feminist tripe.

I'd rather be called 'anti-feminist' than have mental health slurs festooned about the place. The first is admittedly not a very nice thing to be called: the second actively contributes to a culture in which those who have mental health issues are seen as less human than those without.

See the difference?

I support that idea him... But it requires all posters to take ownership and responsibility for the problems the board is having. Seems unlikely right now.

Ah, Eclectic, there you go again. You're entitled to pick out five words from a post if you like - but it was clearly a broad paraphrase intended to sum up the repeated requests for engagement and explanation that are strewn around this thread and others. I seem to recall that both you and I supported the idea of a cafe.

I also recall that you are dead against criticising the poster in any way. So how about you stop doing it?

that sounds too eloquent to be me if it was phrased like that so maybe it was aye robot but I definitely said, and think, that it is up to everyone who uses the space to shape it instead of just whingeing everywhere else

VG, semantics again. I was pointing out that the way your post came across was lacking in humility and likely to get people's backs up... We all need to be more careful about how we post. Yes we agree on things but I don't think you saying that you are educating everyone bodes well, as it's not true.

My point is semantics are crucial in online discussion and need to be given that respect, otherwise we are constantly walking into disagreements which could be avoided...

Alameda - yeah I think it was Ayerobot (...and Ghandi...)

But I didn't say that.

If you're going to pretend that this thread doesn't contain repeated requests for everyone on FWR to post really nicely and educate everyone, etc, then that's frankly, a little odd because there's lots of them.

It got to the point where chibi was advised to engage with racist views, in order to explain why racism is wrong.

I also don't see how you could read my post as saying that I am educating everyone, seeing as I state quite clearly that it's not always my way. And also that nearly every single one of my posts yesterday make the point that actually, I don't think anyone is obliged to engage at all times.

Ghandi would have sorted this shit out days ago.

Anyway, where are mn?

Said on one of the now eight thousand threads on the same subject, that instead of deleting thread as requested they were going to leave it up as they thought it offered a good insight into what was happening, and they were going to discuss with a full team tomorrow what action they were going to take.

Eclectic, a post that cherry-picks five words from a longer post and tags an insult to the end of it is not 'semantics'.

Probably shouldn't post here? But i am new to mumsnet and like to think I am a feminist or at least learning to be one and all this (and I have skimmed the thread) doesn't paint a happy picture. Where do I go to learn more?

My reflection is this; surely one can debate/disagree without insulting? Surely insulting one another does feminism of any shade no good? and also how is rad fem defined?

Thanks hmm.

Itsnot, ifyou want to learn more and talk to others you go to the FWR board where you will find that Victor, Beech, eats and others have already taken on board the fact that it has in the past seemed unwelcoming, where for the past week they have been chatting and answering questions with new posters.

A lot of people posting on this thread have not been active in trying to address the problems, rather they are stoking it up.

Does that not indicate that there was a problem and that the board could be made more welcoming.

All long-standing boards that don't have a permanent 'newbie' thread could be made more welcoming.

I've said plenty of times that genuine posters who are just starting off with feminist thought need somewhere to hang out - but it's also true that all the newbie threads have sunk like stones. The paddling pool is the most successful one yet, probably because traffic is keeping it buoyant.

There is one thing that I have found very unwelcoming and unsettling on FWR: Disruptive/anti-fem male posters. Have this been discussed? How can they be dealt with in the future?

I never felt that there was a problem, others may have done, plenty didn't. Most of us IMO who really do identify as feminist, who have a political view, who are interested in theory, who, genuinely do care about women, have spent a lot of time this week ensuring it is a welcoming and inclusive space. Why not take a look, read the active threads. The real solution is already happening and it's radfems as well as others who are making the effort.

I'm still in favour of
Cafe,
Book club
Theory
support
Activism

Cardgames Just my take on it, but a lot of posters in the paddling pool want to know if certain actions, views, etc, are feminist or not. I think this stems from seeing genuine anti-feminist posters get a hard time and they then worry quite unnecessarily that it will happen to them.

It's one of the reasons I support a paddling pool sticky or board - anyone who says something along the lines of 'what is patriarchy' (bad paraphrase) in the middle of a longer debate could be directed there. I think this would probably sort the wheat from the chaff - genuine posters could go off and have a read, and then post in the paddling pool, or join in the debate elsewhere, or whatever they feel like doing, whereas those who only feel the need to point out that feminism is stupid, or that they don't want to play, wouldn't be interested.

I'm in support of those categories too. There has been an extra effort obviously, hope it continues.