Decision time - state grammar school or quasi-selective independent school

[Quattrocento]

We truly don't know what to do about DD's secondary education. She has always been in the independent sector and is in year 6 at her prep school. The independent school into which the prep school feeds is nice enough. But we entered her into the 11+ for a state grammar school, and we learned today that she'd passed the exam with a high enough mark to ensure a place. So we don't really know what to do. DD says she doesn't much mind what she does and wants to abdicate responsibility leave the decision to us.

I've made a list of the pros and cons for moving to the state grammar school

1. She gets to mix with a very broad range of backgrounds in terms of wealth BUT it's far less ethnically diverse. I like the idea of DD being able to mix across a broad social/racial spectrum.
2. The state grammar has slightly worse exam results BUT the intake is slightly brighter so the difference might be bigger than it appears.
3. The state grammar school has nothing much happening in the way of sporting stuff and DD is super-sporty.
4. The state grammar school doesn't seem to do much in terms of other out-of-school activities
5. The state grammar school seems to have lower standards of behaviour - lots of children quite badly dressed and swearing etc in a way that made little DD's eyes go round as saucers.
6. The state grammar school is going to save us around £80k on independent school fees. The fees are not an issue now but they would be if I were made redundant (looks nervously at global economic environment).

What do you think?

Sounds like your 80K might be well spent! If you don't much like the appearance/behaviour of a lot of the children, they don't do extra curricular and sporting activities and you feel she'll actually be mixing with more people at the independent, it sort of leaves you with no option!!

Presumably you and dd have visited both schools - which felt more like 'home'?

I'm sure if she's bright, she'll do well at either, but it's everything else that goes with it.

Good luck!

How much of a wealthy "bubble" is the private school?

How much of the extra curricular stuff can you make up for?

It's not too bad - the wealthy bubble thing - seems quite down to earth to me.

I can't really compensate for any of the extra-curricular activities myself (work ridiculous hours) but I could probably make some sort of arrangements. We do hockey and tennis out of school in any event - but the thing is, a keen interest in sports and sports being key to the school makes school a MUCH better experience for DD

Well I have a dd in a state grammar school, so it would be a no-brainer for me.

If she's in a very protected prep school then it's easy for both you and her to be overly nervous of normal teenage behaviour -- teenagers are quite unlovely creatures in general, private school ones may be slightly better at masking it. But I'd bet there isn't any vocab she'd learn at the state school that she won't also hear at the private one.

Wrt the sport, if she's very keen then it's not hard to join sports clubs and pursue it outside school. This has the added advantage that she meets a different peer group and has to take a bit more responsibility for the whole process.

Five/seven years down the line it probably won't make any difference, except that you'll be 80K richer. Wouldn't be a big dilemma for me, I have to say.

Quattro - have you though of one of the State Garmmar schools with boarding failities, Cranbrrok is one in Kent and Sexeys in Bruton is another, you get all the benefits of an indpendent boarding school without paying the tuition fees.

Sure she would do very well in either. But

I would stay at the independent school, only due to the lower standards of behaviour.

There are a lot of pupils who come to my DCs state grammar school from the private sector. I am on my 3rd DC there and,for what it is worth, talking to parents over the years who have come from the independents, their main gripes are:

Much scruffier than their old school.
Holidays shorter.
Not as much discipline (but see below)
Not as much 'individual' teaching/care (ie much more sink or swim).
(Not really said out loud but a definite feeling of there are too many 'people NOT like us' there!)

As far as I am concerned, my DCs gain the following:

A good social mix of friends (from really quite wealthy parents to very hard up ones for want of a better word).

A good ethnic mix.

A good academic education.

No bullying (and hence not too much discipline at the school, isn't needed).

Mixing with children of more or less the same academic ability (not being teased for being 'clever').

I think it is very difficult to compare independent schools with state schools, other than as far as the academics are concerned. You will not get the same extras as you get in the private sector, that's what you are paying the money for...

Many of the children from the private sector find the transition to the state sector quite hard at first and find it difficult to relate to the children from very 'ordinary' backgrounds (who don't go ski-ing as a matter of course etc for want of a better example)

However, by the end of the first year, they all seem to settle down and by the end of their time there they absolutely love it and have nothing but praise for the school.

From your original post it sounded like you were leaning to the independent. If you know she'll be happy there, and you can afford the fees, then why create a potential problem?

As they say "if it aint broke, don't fix it"

Quatt - it seems to me you already know what you think but you're undecided because even those who can afford it have to assess saving 80k.
For me, I would go independent...and not for any snob value as I'm sure someone will jump on board and say.

1. The sport thing is important. Sports in school are fab fun with matches, trips to other schools, match teas, house matches etc etc. My DCs love it and I wouldn't want to deprive them of it. It seems a small point to others but my kids thrive on it. Sports outside of school are harder to pursue - take it from one who knows. Gymnastics at 8PM anyone?

Also, at a certain age (around 11 normally) kids start to drop out so that the ones who are left take it seriously. As do the coaches who expect more and more committment. That's fine except your DD may not want to take every sport seriously she may just want to have fun.

1. The fact that the results from the G school are slighly worse despite being more selective says something about the teaching and probably class size. This may not be a huge point but since you've mentioned it you must be thinking about it.

Other factors, which you haven't mentione but which would bother me are
-Music. All my comments about sport apply. If at school you can joing a choir, a brass band, a jazz band, an orchestra it's fun. This is hard to achieve outside school.
-I don't know how bothered you are about the NC. I loathe it and will pay diamonds and bullion to avoid it.
-longer holidays...we love 'em.

Frankly, if you've got the dosh then spend it - let someone who can't afford it have the place at the state school.

I think the state grammar may be better preparation for life tbh.

My main criticism of private (and I kids in both sectors) is that it can just be a bubble that doesn't really prepare you for life. Sorry but I don't buy the 'ethnically diverse' argument - my dd's school is stuffed with posh rich Chinese kids - it doesn't make for diversity, it's not a cross section of society at all! Just other kids from well off families who tend to stick with their own ethnic group anyway.

I also question the value for money thing, but then I live in an area with good state comprehensives, which you clearly don't, so harder decision for you.

I also would think carefully about the economic forecast.

LOL at the sentiment of " getting to mix with POOR people"

Reminds me of Diana taking her kids to look at homeless folk.

sniger

Thinking ahead, the Grammar might look better on the UCAS form. And if DD has bothered to find out-of-school sport etc (instead of apparently being passively spponfed intramural opportunities) then that also helps.

I know you say that fees are not an issue but £80k is a huge amount of money that could be spent on University or a house deposit.

Thinking pragmatically, if you do make the wrong choice then going Grammar -> Private will be a million times easier than Private -> Grammar.

PS congrats to DD

It sounds to me as though you're swaying towards the private school.

I'd go with your gut.

violet - my experience is that grammars are really no less of a bubble than indies.
Our nearest grammar has hardly any diversity ( colour nor class). Are there really lots of kids from sink estates at grammar schools or are they predominantly full of the white middle classes?
As for preparation for life isn't that the job of parents not schools?

And how much will they really mix anyway?

Research shows sadly not a lot at all.

you've not mentioned the journey to school - does that make a difference?

FWIW we were in a similar position to you with dd2 and chose the independent school, primarily because dd1 was already there and it was where dd2 wanted to go (to be with her sister). In addition we preferred the extracurricular and school journey at the independent. We hadn't expected the grammar place (because we live too far away), and hadn't even taken dd2 round the school. I think lots of people at her state primary were surprised by our decision because the grammar school is a good one and if it had been our eldest we might have made a different decision although I'm not sure because of the other factors.

Good point about looking ahead to UCAS. Private may not be the optimum position to be applying from.

Mrs W - I came back to the PC to ask the very same thing.
If one were much nearer or convenient than the other that would be a big factor for me.

School journey is about 7 miles to the independent and about 6 miles to the grammar. Rather unfortunately, they are in entirely the opposite direction - which is a factor (ish) as DS will continue to go to the independent at least until the end of year 6.

Bus?

Double at thinking about UCAS when chosing a school for a 10/11 year old.
Xenia would so aprove.

Well, if 10/11 is the time your child is changing schools, that's the point at which you have to factor it in alongside everything else.

Good Universities do have pressure on them, and rightly so, to show that they are recruiting very very bright kids, not ones who may have been hothoused, coached to within an inch of their lives etc.

I know the state schools and state 6th form college in this area are getting more into Oxbridge now than the private - and I would imagine it will continue in the same vein.

So it's a point to consider.

Spend the £80k.

Does the independent school do IGCSEs and/or the IB?