Decision time - state grammar school or quasi-selective independent school

[Quattrocento]

We truly don't know what to do about DD's secondary education. She has always been in the independent sector and is in year 6 at her prep school. The independent school into which the prep school feeds is nice enough. But we entered her into the 11+ for a state grammar school, and we learned today that she'd passed the exam with a high enough mark to ensure a place. So we don't really know what to do. DD says she doesn't much mind what she does and wants to abdicate responsibility leave the decision to us.

I've made a list of the pros and cons for moving to the state grammar school

1. She gets to mix with a very broad range of backgrounds in terms of wealth BUT it's far less ethnically diverse. I like the idea of DD being able to mix across a broad social/racial spectrum.
2. The state grammar has slightly worse exam results BUT the intake is slightly brighter so the difference might be bigger than it appears.
3. The state grammar school has nothing much happening in the way of sporting stuff and DD is super-sporty.
4. The state grammar school doesn't seem to do much in terms of other out-of-school activities
5. The state grammar school seems to have lower standards of behaviour - lots of children quite badly dressed and swearing etc in a way that made little DD's eyes go round as saucers.
6. The state grammar school is going to save us around £80k on independent school fees. The fees are not an issue now but they would be if I were made redundant (looks nervously at global economic environment).

What do you think?

I'm not certain how much it is about money - I mean it's not an issue now but lots of firms (including my own) have made redundancies and the economic situation will get worse before it gets better.

when you say reasonable justification - what do you mean? I don't know what to do, for the best for DD (and DS) that's all.

I'm just teasing you.
But you have to admit - "my dd is a talented at sports and the school offers excellence in that area" does play better than "yikes at the scuffed shoes".

I know you want to do the best for your children. I do. I'm not doubting your motives at all.

Honestly, I think she'll get top grades in either school. She sounds like the kind of girl who would manage that even in the school where I teach. So your decisions need to be based not on that, but on the other stuff. And I think your point earlier about how she would get those top grades is an interesting one. I wonder if you could see some actual lessons...

I think the general happiness of a child is very important to their wellbeing and willingness to learn. When we chose secondary schools for ds there was a more academic option with better results and a more musical/arty one (still with quite good results). We chose the later (even though I was far less sure of his musical leanings than his academic ones) and he's really thriving there, doing loads of music that would definitely not have been possible elsewhere and has a great attitude to learning too. Music does it for him more than sport (his sport is one that is usually done outside school in any case), but I think it's the same principle. Although what you said about the inflexibilty did ring a few alarm bells, (I've been very impressed lately with ds's school's flexibility in academic approach), overall from what you've said I'd err towards the sporty school.

From what you're saying it does seem to be a case of weighing the superior after-school activities of the grammar against your fears of not being able to keep up with the fees. If you can put money aside, then that may well help to give you a handle on the situation.

seeker i beg to differ

i would love a boater ...plaits on head make me weak at the knees

knee socks and shorts

Had the same decision last year, already had dd1 at the school (from state) and looking for dd2 (had moved from state to prep in y4 due to abysmal pastoral care at school rated as 'outstanding'). Had places at local (ish) grammar (top 20), & a number of indies. She picked the indi that her sister is at & we were happy with that as for us the level of pastoral care was the biggest issue (based on past experience) and so that is what we looked for.

Very happy so far but will never know whether it is worth the money as we will never know whether she would have thrived at the Grammar, just wasn't a risk we were prepared to take.

sorry typo: 'superior activities of the independent school', clearly. And I don't think that was freudian either, just that I was reading somebody else's post about the grammar just before typing typing.

I'm with seeker on the uniform issue - comfy clothes just look nicer to me. However, I think research (probably flawed) has shown that smart uncomfortable uniforms produce better results.

Gawd, state school uniforms can be absolute dire. Black crimplene blazers and low waisted trousers. Ghastly.

Gimme a proper, strict, uniform any day.

Uniforms at both our schools are very practical, btw.

Difficult to prove that uniform produces better results because it's going to be so hard to isolate this factor in any trial.

Certainly hasn't worked round our way. Out of the three local state secondaries, the one with the casual uniform (sweatshirt and no tie) has by far the best results and the best behaviour- and no scruffy-looking ties at half mast! The one with the strict uniform has had riots and a large proportion of the staff has resigned over the last term. And friends with kids at the school tell me they're not learning anything.

My sons' independent school has 100% polyester blazers and you can buy school jumpers, shirts and trews from anywhere you like. I actually think the poncyness of the uniform is often inversely proportionate to the quality of the school.

My grammar was obviously very unusual, we had tartan kilts and more after school activities than you could shake a stick at. 3 orchestras, 5 choirs, upper and lower school drama productions twice a year, very successful at sports (against the local private schools)....

Discipline was both strict and lax. It was amazing what you could get away with if you churned out the A grades. I once smoked a joint in front of my English teacher, on school property (not during the school day).

If all this is the crunch factor go private.

There are dire uniforms in state and private. But let's not get sidetracked by thinking that uniform is a major factor in determining success.

Give me inspiring, dynamic teachers who have the talents to cope with children in all their complexities - stellar bright, reasonably competent, bright with a specific special need, struggling..... these are the kind of teachers who earn my respect and who I believe are the ones who really make a difference. That's the sort of person who can strike a chord with a child and inspire them.

"a keen interest in sports and sports being key to the school makes school a MUCH better experience for DD"
"DD says she doesn't much mind what she does and wants to abdicate responsibility leave the decision to us"

How do you square these two sentiments? If sport is vastly superior at the Private and it is so important to DD then why isn't she lobbying for the Private? Is school sport not that important (bearing in mind she already does tennis and hockey out of school) or is she hiding her feelings (worried about economic climate maybe?).

I'm not sure that MN can help you on this query QC. DD will be fine at either school and it is a close call to chose which one to go with. Without really knowing your DD and the two schools in question it is difficult to advise; I think that you need to speak to local parents, esp at the Grammar.

It still doesn't look as if money is that much of an issue to you, Quattro - if it were you'd be going for the grammar school like a shot

I, like others, think you're looking for validaton because you feel guilty turning down a place that is so highly coveted. Don't. Someone else will be overjoyed to receive it. And, as I said earlier, you can always move your dd at sixth form if she needs a change.

Yes, agree with jujumaman.

If you have doubts,please leave the place for someone who will really appreciate a grammar school education, not for someone who is always comparing it to the independent school.

bags spot on

Absolutely.

Think of it this way, if you DON'T take the grammar place, it's win-win: your child probably gets an education more in keeping with her interests and another child benefits from the grammar place.

I do have some (a lot) of sympathy with the 'leave the place for someone who'll really appreciate it' argument. I had in fact thought it myself. However, I wonder how many of us would have such altruistic thoughts if it were our own child? What matters to the OP is where her child will be happiest/best fulfil her potential, and I'm not sure that social responsibility necessarily comes into it if that's what she's (rightly, understandably) concerned about.

More to the point is that I think, QC, you would always think 'what if...' whichever school you go for. However, I think the 'what if...s' will be considerably fewer if you go for the independent school. If your DD were to have strong opinions and want to move schools at sixth-form level, she'd increase her chances of getting into a decent university by being at a state school for the relevant two years .

Although the only exams you have actually taken when applying for University is GCSE - so actually being at state school earlier may be an advantage

whoops - are not is

I'll have the pedants after me!

dotoressa

I think it's too much to ask someone to forego a grammar school place on purely altruistic grounds - but since quattro seemes to be inclined to the privae school she can also have the warm glow of knowing someone else will be overjoyed by her dd's foregoing the place.

It sounds to me as if quattro prefers the private school but is aware of how many people would sell their left eyeball to get dcs into a grammar school and therefore can't trust her instincts which are to go against the majority view

Where is the evidence that universities (apart from Bristol) discriminate against independent schools? We certainly don't find that at our school.

And they have done AS modules prior to filling in their UCAS forms.

Scienceteacher - it was a joke!

(I was a university admissions tutor in my previous incarnation, and I don't think the applicants' schools made any difference to what we thought of them...).