Decision time - state grammar school or quasi-selective independent school

[Quattrocento]

We truly don't know what to do about DD's secondary education. She has always been in the independent sector and is in year 6 at her prep school. The independent school into which the prep school feeds is nice enough. But we entered her into the 11+ for a state grammar school, and we learned today that she'd passed the exam with a high enough mark to ensure a place. So we don't really know what to do. DD says she doesn't much mind what she does and wants to abdicate responsibility leave the decision to us.

I've made a list of the pros and cons for moving to the state grammar school

1. She gets to mix with a very broad range of backgrounds in terms of wealth BUT it's far less ethnically diverse. I like the idea of DD being able to mix across a broad social/racial spectrum.
2. The state grammar has slightly worse exam results BUT the intake is slightly brighter so the difference might be bigger than it appears.
3. The state grammar school has nothing much happening in the way of sporting stuff and DD is super-sporty.
4. The state grammar school doesn't seem to do much in terms of other out-of-school activities
5. The state grammar school seems to have lower standards of behaviour - lots of children quite badly dressed and swearing etc in a way that made little DD's eyes go round as saucers.
6. The state grammar school is going to save us around £80k on independent school fees. The fees are not an issue now but they would be if I were made redundant (looks nervously at global economic environment).

What do you think?

Quattro, Have you considered Cranbrook? state grammar, does weekly/term boarding, great sports, fantastic drama facilities and the dc's are very very niiicce iykwim.

Ria - My sons' independent school field their second teams against the local grammars' first teams - and still thrash them.

Having been on the receiving end of two separate Ofsted inspections, I can honestly say that IMO any grading received reflects more than anthing how closely a setting follows current government guidelines. So I wouldn't pay much heed to an "Outstanding" or necessarily be put off my a mere "satisfactory".

Which school seems better suited to your dd? From what you've said, the independent one does - and isn't that, after all, what's most important?

I agree with you Bloss. My attitude also comes from my experience as a teacher in state (incl grammar) and independent. I would say that that is quite a useful view - certainly I can cut through the trash stuff that schools say about themselves.

Prof - same here with rugby, no wonder they are never up for match tea.

Thanks for all the responses - I'm still dithering over this one. She takes such pride in her school work, it's nice to see, and I don't want to muck it up by making an unsuitable choice for secondary school.

If I had the option to send DS to a grammar school I would in a heartbeat, but there aren't any. But then, I went to one, so I think they are bloody marvellous.

If you really think the behaviour in the private school is better (I seriously doubt that is true, they are probably better at hiding it) and you think your DD would be happier at private AND you can afford the fees, send her private and let someone else have that grammar place.

Their alternative might be the local sink school.

I apologise if it seems a bit ungrateful to be looking a gift horse in the mouth. This decision seems hard to me.

On the behaviour front, a place that gives demerits for using the word 'damn' is taking behaviour seriously I think. Although that seems a bit repressive to me.

I think as a GS teacher you would be mad to spend out all that money (if it is a struggle) on independent school fees. A grammar school education is equal and superior to a great deal of independent education in our locale. If my DS passed the 11 plus (highly highly unlikely) he would be there in a shot.

Re extracurricular clubs that can change with staff changes.

The music department at my GS (me and DH!) put on 3 choirs, orchestra and training orchestra, jazz band, 2 recorder groups, music theory club, brass ensemble, wind ensemble and a german oom pah band.

If it was going to cost me 80 grand i would sent her to the grammar, free and spend a weeny proportion of the 80 grand on extra things out of school time.

(the independent schools we have looked around for our son do nothing like as much for music )

BUt god she is ..year 6?

they are all keen then. Wait till Y9.

You're not saying that you agree with "damn" being a demerit-able word, are you?

About the sports, it might also be worth thinking about what her particular sporting talent is and how easy it would be to meet that outside of school.

A friend of dd's is a very strong swimmer and already doing extremely well in competitions; yet her state school only offers swimming lessons for those pupils who cannot swim the width of the local pool. But then again, they are close to a pool with (I believe) very good coaches, so they can still provide what she needs for rather less than 80k.

Ds wants stage training, but I don't think we'll need to get him into the secondary which specializes in the performing art as we have a very good stage school across the road; they can probably do better for him.

But all these things- quality of coaching, travel distance etc would have to be factored in.

It's great that they (you) do a lot of music at your school, Stillenacht. FWIW the music provision is rather better at the independent school.

There are three choirs, orchestra, violin group, string group, guitar group, wind group and jazz group. They even have special lessons for the harpists. There's a specialist music block and they do their music lessons in there - they do all their instrument tuition in the school with visiting teachers. DD does her piano lessons in school rather than as a peripatetic thing (a bonus). They have musical scholarships for choristers at the local cathedral. DD goes to lots of competitions with her choir. I do think that music tuition is important but DD isn't really that bothered but just gets caught up in it all.

Quattro - you want the independent surely? Because it seems to me you don't just want a good education - which I'm pretty sure an outstanding grammar school would provide in purely academic terms. You want the other stuff too. The 'badly dressed' comment - I mean, I'm not really sure what that means, but I'm pretty certain it's something the independent will care more about. Like you do. And your dd will end up similarly attired - you know it...

That sound like I'm having a bit of a pop, and I'm really not. If these things matter to you, and you can find the dosh, then go with where you feel more comfortable.

But Cory, the trouble is when you've got a kid who loves to be part of all the teams - hockey, netball, cross country, tennis, gymnastics, athletics, lacrosse, basketball etc etc that you just can't fit it all in as part of an extra curricular thang, unless your school doesn't give any prep and you happen to live within five miles of all those clubs. And that's assuming that Mum can or even wants to spend each evening doing that. Not to mention the affect on the other kids.
Whereas some schools will offer that.
And if it's offered as part of the curriculum and you can afford it...well why not really?

Sorry about badly dressed comment - was not being snotty (or not deliberately snotty anyway) but I meant that thing of having ties at half-mast and scuffed shoes and that I'm-a-teenager-and-I-don't-care sort of look. With spots on ...

I dunno about comfortable though - it's not relevant whether or not I feel comfortable - I'm no pillar of the PTA - it's all about what DD would feel comfortable with.

I agree FallenMadonna.

I get the feeling Quattro isn't going to take the plunge into state, and is really struggling with it all and wanting validation. If you want to pay 80k for the things the private will provide, then do it. And I'm not having a pop either - I have kids in both state and private.

IMO you weigh up the pros and cons as far as you can, look at your circumstances, whether you want to commit to long term fees or maybe top up with private tuition, and then just decide one way or the other.

One word of caution though... your children are still quite young. Mine are older, and those of us with teens know that their interests will change and develop, and just because your dd is sports mad now, she may get other interests, or at least not be wanting to be in all the sports teams by the time she's Year 10. My ds was a chorister at private school - he is obviously naturally very musical but once he'd left the choir his interests developed in other areas. He has no desire to pursue a career as a musician, and chose to move to a state school which he prefers. Just don't underestimate how your child may change.

I forgot about our guitar ensemble (oops)

Agree with thefallenmadonna - i personally would opt to save the money as i know DS would get a fantastic education at the GS school - i can't believe i am going to pay out so much for my son in a couple of years time that my pupils get for free. Its so unfair!

Here's the thing, Quatt.
You have the cash. It's not an issue.
If it were you'd be finding a gazillion reasons why you should take the grammar place and I'd be supporting that to the hilt.
I mean, why would anyone spend cash they haven't got unless the state alternative is dire - which does definitely happen but fortunately not to you.
In your circumstances you know full well that the indie will provide probably the same academics as the grammar and that you're paying for the extras...so what? The extras are worth having for your DD.
And if your worried about the crunchiness of said credit then put two years fees aside 9 if you haven't already). If you lost your job tomorrow can you seriously tell me you wouldn't replace it in 2 years?
I didn't think so.

It's not a money thing though is it Litchick?

Plenty of us could pay; some of us do, some of us choose not to. Some of us, like me, have a foot in both camps because our child might have a need that makes us feel we need to pay.

I haven't got the impression at all that money is an issue - this is about an emotional wrangle about what is the best thing for each child. Whether they are going to be happy with the decision you make for them in the next few years and in thirty years time, when they'll be pondering where to send their own kids.

I genuinely wasn't having a pop. You clearly both notice and care about these things. Your dd will probably go native in her school, whichever that is. It's not like you're considering a massive social change for her, by your own assessment of the schools. So I suspect she would be comfortable in both.

Apart from the sport - which is your real reasonable justification in mixed company

I agree. People tend to get far too hung up about these things. My ds made the transition from chorister to state school student (his choice) with ease. He moved across into top sets; academically there's very little difference, and socially, ds prefers the greater diversity. What suited him at 7 didn't suit him at 14. We worry about all this far more than our kids do!!

And to be brutally honest, you never know if they'll turn around in 10 or 20 years time and berate you for it all anyway! I've come across people who went to state schools who feel that they could have achieved more if their parents had sent them to private, and I've come across privately educated people who lack confidence their whole life through because they feel they've only got where they are in life by virtue of their parents' paying and not through their own ability.

Don't beat yourself up - just get on with it.

Interesting - one of the things that puts me off private education is the super-smart sometimes (I know not always!) uber-poncy uniforms! Mydd wears an open necked shirt, a V necked jumper and trousers. Smartish, comfortable, easy to wash and practical. Not a boater, winged collar or blazer in sight!