Decision time - state grammar school or quasi-selective independent school

[Quattrocento]

We truly don't know what to do about DD's secondary education. She has always been in the independent sector and is in year 6 at her prep school. The independent school into which the prep school feeds is nice enough. But we entered her into the 11+ for a state grammar school, and we learned today that she'd passed the exam with a high enough mark to ensure a place. So we don't really know what to do. DD says she doesn't much mind what she does and wants to abdicate responsibility leave the decision to us.

I've made a list of the pros and cons for moving to the state grammar school

1. She gets to mix with a very broad range of backgrounds in terms of wealth BUT it's far less ethnically diverse. I like the idea of DD being able to mix across a broad social/racial spectrum.
2. The state grammar has slightly worse exam results BUT the intake is slightly brighter so the difference might be bigger than it appears.
3. The state grammar school has nothing much happening in the way of sporting stuff and DD is super-sporty.
4. The state grammar school doesn't seem to do much in terms of other out-of-school activities
5. The state grammar school seems to have lower standards of behaviour - lots of children quite badly dressed and swearing etc in a way that made little DD's eyes go round as saucers.
6. The state grammar school is going to save us around £80k on independent school fees. The fees are not an issue now but they would be if I were made redundant (looks nervously at global economic environment).

What do you think?

QC, we may well be in the same position as you shortly, although we have relatively little knowledge and no experience of the private sector. I personally am lured by the equipment and materials which the private schools have, eg machines for DT, live tarantula in the biology lab, excellent library etc.

Litchick, could you explain about the National Curriculum in private schools? I know I should know, but I don't.

Also our fear with our local grammars are that they will indeed contain more kids who have been hothoused to within an inch of their lives in order to pass the 11+. Eating disorder factories quite possibly.

Your kid might learn the word...."fuck" otherwise rather than the infinitely preferable "fark".

Some state schools do IB/IGCSEs too - they certainly do round our way.

Quite a few swap from the independent sector to my DCs grammar school for the 6th form (including some whose parents teach in the independent sector).

Some find it quite hard going, despite their strings of As at GCSE, and AREN'T the ones who necessarily get the Oxbridge places (and about 27 offers this year) so it isn't a passport to the top universities.

Despite the school being seen as middle class (which it is mainly), many private school parents find it quite 'rough' compared to their independent school. In reality it is a really good mix socially and ethnically and, as far as I am concerned, that is the ethos of a grammar school. Parents are mainly professionals, academics, doctors and lawyers. No great peer pressure to wear the latest gear, bragging about fab holidays etc.

I really think you need to consider whether it is the academic aspect of a school you are interested in or all the extras you naturally get in a private school and for which you are paying.

I would definitely look carefully at uni destinations and courses for both. We have some excellent state grammar schools nearby, but their uni destinations are somewhat surprising.

Independant,w ithout a doubt. You do not want them mixing with people from families who have had nits

and not naice nits

do you earn a lot - i dont htink you have told us before

And more importantly, talk to your child about University destinations, and indeed, everything else. The child may only be 11, but it's their life.

I have seen some real surprises with Universities attended when I'm appointing people. But sometimes there are really interesting reasons why they decided to study a particular course at a particular place. And if they're up to the job, they get appointed, regardless of where they've been. Isn't that what it's all about in the end?

My primary interest is in a school's academics.

So at the independent school they just hothouse them until they get their 10 A* at GCSE. Lots of rote and fairly dull learning. DD is quite bright and she found this dull at prep and it's set to get worse from now on.

So although it is undeniably true that the independent school has better results, I don't know that it fosters a genuine love of learning. All the cramming can be quite offputting.

But the behaviour aspect matters, and the sports matters (LOTS) to DD.

Perhaps I should add that because we have a deepseated need as parents to be seen to be fair - we would have to send DS to the same school in due course. DS is much less sporty. He is also much more lazy - the type of boy for whom independent schools genuinely are a boon.

Can't you find a better school than that for £80k?

Yes I'm quite well paid but I don't think the nits checked my P60 they infested us at least twice ...

thats nice to know

how about worms?

I agree, it doesn't seem you've had value for money, unless the alternatives were really dire. In which case I'd have moved house I think!!

I would be careful about assuming that a particular type of school 'suits' a lazy child though - my ds is very bright but also pretty laid back, well, lazy - he has been in private and state and found the style of state suited him much better. Teenage boys hate naggy, pernickity teachers - far better to get them to have a genuine love of learning so that they can see what's in it for them.

I had much the same dilemma with DS2. He got offered a place at a top 20 (non selective) state school which beats a lot of grammar schools at A level. He also got offered a place at DS1's highly selective independent day school. The fees are more than £80K for the 7 years he will be there (at current rates). I have absolutely no regrets about choosing the fee paying option.

For me it was nothing to do with exam results and more to do with the independent school's ethos of respect and energetic enthusiasm for life and all it has to offer.

Oh dearie me, does that mean all of us state school riff raff don't have any enthusiasm for life now !!

Right, I'm going to open a can of worms now!

I reckon state school engenders higher levels of wit! MN provides a strong evidence base!

no we eat tinned ham, drink cider, watch large tvs and do nothing
keep up violentill

I would check up on the sport. From the outside our grammar school doesn't seem to be terribly sporty but once there, they do compete at a high level with the local indepdendent schools at rugby, hockey etc. They are just as competitive. They have rugby and netball tours overseas.

Also they do debating, CCF, Duke of Edinburgh, international competitions in Latin, Mandarin and economics, compete in Maths, Science olympiads etc. (and do well).

They do overseas trips to China/USA, ski-trips......

All for free!

Well, obviously you have to pay to go on the trips etc but a drop in the ocean compared to school fees.

It's not all doom and despair in the state sector you know (and they are polite, well mannered, and even speak nicely ).

violentill - Love it!!

I rest my case!

Violethill - Is your son lazy or is he really full of enthusiasm?

He's full of enthusiasm for life, but pretty lazy about doing his Maths homework right now!

Independent. It seems like you're leaning that way anyway, and the sporting opportunities sound like an important factor for your DD. You can always send her to a state 6th form college if you're worried about UCAS.

I think most independent parents have a wobble or two about whether they are doing the right thing.

What really convicted me to independent education was teaching in a grammar school for two terms.

Faced with your choice, Quattro, it really is a no-brainer. Independent.

I think you should give her the best possible education you can whether it means spending money or not(assuming you can afford to). I also think that you often get breaks/opportunities ~ call it what you will through the people you mix with(you know...it's not what you know, it's who you know), so that is, IMHO a foothold into the world of opportunity. If I were in a position to pay for his education I would...I'm lucky that my Ds has passed his 11+ and we are hoping for a place in a good school.