Decision time - state grammar school or quasi-selective independent school

[Quattrocento]

We truly don't know what to do about DD's secondary education. She has always been in the independent sector and is in year 6 at her prep school. The independent school into which the prep school feeds is nice enough. But we entered her into the 11+ for a state grammar school, and we learned today that she'd passed the exam with a high enough mark to ensure a place. So we don't really know what to do. DD says she doesn't much mind what she does and wants to abdicate responsibility leave the decision to us.

I've made a list of the pros and cons for moving to the state grammar school

1. She gets to mix with a very broad range of backgrounds in terms of wealth BUT it's far less ethnically diverse. I like the idea of DD being able to mix across a broad social/racial spectrum.
2. The state grammar has slightly worse exam results BUT the intake is slightly brighter so the difference might be bigger than it appears.
3. The state grammar school has nothing much happening in the way of sporting stuff and DD is super-sporty.
4. The state grammar school doesn't seem to do much in terms of other out-of-school activities
5. The state grammar school seems to have lower standards of behaviour - lots of children quite badly dressed and swearing etc in a way that made little DD's eyes go round as saucers.
6. The state grammar school is going to save us around £80k on independent school fees. The fees are not an issue now but they would be if I were made redundant (looks nervously at global economic environment).

What do you think?

'cherished paying customer'

I prefer my relationship and moreover my childs relationship to be based on them and their worth - not cashflow

Your kids did not get in to Oxbridge so why the obsession?

You make it all sound so 'shallow' Xenia

Quattrocento - 2 main points I have

1. Independent schools are about far more than academic results as I'm sure you know. There will be so much opportunity for her to try things you never thought about, and maybe she excels at one of these. I disagree that they hothouse the kids academically. A good independent school is more about the all rounder. I think state grammars are more likely to push academically.

1. Can you be certain state grammars will still be around in 8 years time !!!!!

TBTT - you make a very salient point about whether they will still be around. Even if they are, gvt interfence is unlikely to reduce - one of the reasons I am not holding my breath for the survival of the only two remaining grammar schools where I live.

This is a misconception of state school parents - that prviate school paretns are buying exam results. Good results are great of course and some of us have reasonably bright children but not all in the private sector by any means. I like the broad education, the teaching beyond the curriculum, the extra curricular stuff, the relationships between chidlren and staff. It has never felt shallow to me but I think someone moving from private to state would find they are moving from purchaser who must be kept happy to take it or leave it you're lucky to have it for nothing. That is the difference between state provision and the free market.

For once I very slightly agree with Xenia... on one point:'purchaser who must be kept happy', this is the crux.

At a highly academic state grammar many ex-private sector children find it quite hard. They don't get all the 'extras' associated with the private school (for which you are paying)and therefore it is a lot more 'sink or swim'. And everyone is as bright as each other in the academic sense.

I don't understand why often there is an assumption that the child's school is its only experience. I don't chose to do my job because of the diversity of people I meet there, if that exists it is a bonus, but I get plenty of diversity outside work. In the same way a school is a child's 'job' but they meet and mix and interact with a variety of types of people outside in other ways.

My dcs school have excellent pastoral care
an inordinate range of extra curricular activitities

the relationship I have with them is great

Taking my daughter to my sons school she was greeted with members of staff commenting on how like her brother she is- with no need for introduction

The staff and children have great repartee and a truly close bond by sixth form

this is not because we pay for it

Sadly those with only experience of independent sector on this seem to be blind to the possibilities a good state school can provide

My DCs STATE grammar school has had 27 Oxbridge offers this year, more than any other school, state or independent in the county (thats COUNTY not country before anyone flys at me).

I am driven to boasting like this (NEVER normally do so, keep v quiet in public usually) by the ludicrous assumptions of some people on this site re. the private v state school debate.

There are undoubtedly huge advantages received by paying to go down the independent route, I am sure. But somehow being made 'more intelligent' isn't one of them.

Yes I agree bags. Xenia is clearly a reasonably bright person but she doesn't seem to understand the logic that juse because more pupils may get into Oxbridge from School A than School B, doesn't mean that a specific child (let's call her'Child X') is more likely to get in from School A. Because as has been pointed out countless times (including by Oxbridge admissions tutors) Child X will either have the ability and potential or not. There may well be a greater concentration of Oxbridge candidates in School A, for all sorts of reasons - just as there is a greater concentration in the top sets at high performing state schools than in lower ones! The mistake some fee payers make is to assume that paying will turn their child into something they aren't.

woohoo

P.S. And I agree it's a shame, bags, that ludicrous assumptions drive people to feeling they have to quote figures. The school where I teach (which actually isn't a hugely academic secondary) also has a handful of Oxbridge offers. And guess what? - they are incredibly bright children who would have got the offer from any type of school. There aren't as many as 27, because it's not a grammar school, it's a comp. Which is exactly what one would expect.
Why do people get so hung up on overall statistics? Isn't it your own children who are important to you? If any of my children have the ability and inclination to apply for Oxbridge, I'd be happier if they were one of a small handful of successful candidates from their school, than being an unsuccessful candidate in a school that gets 25 other kids in.

One thing I have alawys been sure of - for the fairly thick child the benefits of paying are massive. its't hose children most of all who benefit frmo the value added of small classes, good contacts, accent, class, connections, loads of clubs and hobbies but it's a pointless debate as most mothers dont' earn anthing like enough to pay in a month of Sundays and most children go to state schools adn do fine so not worth anyone getting their knickers in a twist about.

'For the fairly thick child the benefits of paying are massive'.....I completely agree although I think I could have put it a bit more, ahem, tactfully.

Thank goodness the benefits don't stretch as far as convincing admissions tutors at top universities these days though.

The OPs child though isn't fairly thick though, I think we have established that

Ria, bags, etc.
It's all very well for those who go to good schools to champion them but many State schols aren't like that: I would have championed DD's school if they got 27 people per year into Oxbridge. However, they have had one in the last decade (daughter of a teacher, natch). Most kids, if they go to Uni at all, go to local second-tier ones.
QC understands that this is not a state v. independent debate, it's good v. bad (or in her case good v. good, which is why it's so tricky)

Yes, I agree with you iamdisappointedinyou. The OP does have a genuine dilemma.

Was going to say that about my DCs being very lucky too (and lots and lots more, have said it earlier on in the thread) but the OP was about independent v state grammar.

Whilst most/practically all posters who are in the private sector, seem to understand the difference between a state grammar and a terrible sink school, SOME don't. So it's easier to keep the argument simple.

Yes, I agree with you iamdisappointedinyou. The OP does have a genuine dilemma.

Was going to say that about my DCs being very lucky too (and lots and lots more, have said it earlier on in the thread) but the OP was about independent v state grammar.

Whilst most/practically all posters who are in the private sector, seem to understand the difference between a state grammar and a terrible sink school, SOME don't. So it's easier to keep the argument simple.

Ah, but it is sort of a state vs independent dilemma too. A state school, even an excellent one, is still a state school, and is still potentially at the mercy of whatever rotten initiative the state decides is a good idea. Some state schools are less vulnerable to this than others, of course, but they are still not independent in the sense that really matters (or would matter to me, at any rate). They are also potentially vulnerable to being abolished!

I don't think this should turn into yet another state parents vs private parents squabble, not least as the OP has not asked for that. However, if I were faced with the choice that she is faced with, the state/independent element would definitely come into it.

iamdisappointed - you make a very good point.
I am sure there are good state schools with kids going to Oxbridge if that's the sort of thing that impresses you but my local secondary gets 29% A-C GCSEs. That's the majority leaving without the bare basics of an education.
Whilst I'm willing to believe that a certain number of bright students have been creamed off by the private sector I cannot accept that the rest are a bunch of no- hopers.
These children are being massively let down by the state system and I'm always shocked that anyone is prepared to defend that.
Saying my kids are bright, my school is lovely...me , me , me just doesn't adress the problem that there is systematic failure.

We had similar dilemma this time last year, between v. selective state grammar and selective indie in London. We eventually chose the indie because journey was easier, prospect of more local friends, and given slightly less selective intake they seemed to add more value in results terms. However, I'd be lying if I didn't sometimes wonder if we made the wrong decision. We can manage the fees out of income, and we've never spent much in any case, but sometimes it's hard not to think what else you might be able to use the money for (eg exciting holidays for the kids etc). In our case we were coming out of state primary so the switch to the indie world was also unsettling and I've had to work hard to keep contact with parents of old primary school friends. However, all that said, dc is very, very happy and involved in loads of stuff - sport, music, drama etc, although the grammar also had lots of extra-curric stuff too... But the grammar is a much bigger school and I'm not sure dc would really have had the same opportunities there... But you will never know how the other decision would have turned out which is why I think you just have to make the decision based on your thoughts at the time, and then make the best of it. It's a good dilemma to have!

Yes, I completely agree with you Litchick.

I am not proud of having bring in the statistics from my DCs school(I hope everyone realises the reasoning behind my publicising their results!). They are very, very lucky to a) go to that school and b) have parents who are informed enough to jump through the necessary hoops to get that education for them. Pity the people who don't have those choices.

However, the OP WAS asking about choice between state grammar and independent

Yes, there are risks grammar schools might be abolished or arbitraty decisions like I think one last week that suddenly one won't take chidlren from other border in the next county (notts?). For the small badly funded not very good private schools there are risks too of closure particularyl at the moment.

I just checked my nearest comprehensive. It gets 22% A - C aGCSE including English and maths. I thought oh this will show how silly I am and as it's London and people are well off the local chidlren in a leafy outer London suburb will be doing pretty well, 50% may be? Wow. I can't believe how bad it is. And this is a lot of children of Asian families who work so very very hard and have that lovely work ethic which so helps my own children in their private schools with those children as the Indians etc go home to lots of homework , family support for work etc. I'm sure taht's not confined to those in the private sector surely. So that means 78% of them get D or lower in GCSEs, these incredibly easy exams people go on about. That's amazing. What's wrong with them? I see them every day. They look a bit poor and sloppy but they're just children. Why do they do so badly. We don't have grammar schools.

The bright little bubbles always rise to the top !

There are a lot of great children in grammar schools that would have gone private in the past. Why? Because they are successful and if there is a problem it will get sorted, unlike at some indies where things do get swept under the carpet.

I've done both and the grammars are better than a lot of indies. There's also probably a better chance of getting into uni from state school nowadays.

No one knows quite what is ahead for us all financially (apart from a lot of debt) so I would save your 80K and go for the grammar where there will be plenty of like minded families.

Lucky you to have such a great choice - most people don't. Count your blessings and your pennies!

ps if the grammar is a dismal failure there are bound to be places at the indie later on as the recession means people have to drop out.

Bonne chance sweetie....

Thanks for all your comments - really glad to hear them.

We are taking time over this decision - we've got until the end of Feb to make the choice.

Had a long chat with the head of the independent yesterday - there were a few outstanding points I was worried about (blip with pass rates in Maths last year, why the emphasis on the double science award, why restriction on number of GCSEs, entry standards and whether fee increases have made it rather less selective than before etc etc). It was quite a hard conversation to have actually - so much easier to float away on a cloud of marketing spiel - and I think the head found it a bit more challenging than she is used to - but she was really good (I'd give her an A- ).

Next thing to do is have a chat with the grammar school and then a final chat with DD, then I think we just have to make up our minds.

I am pretty convinced actually that there isn't that much difference between the two options - except I might have to send DD to elocution classes if she goes to the grammar.

(that last comment was a joke btw).

You won't have to do the elocution classes if if it's anything like dd's grammar - so posh it couldn't be posher and everyone appears to be called Emily, Sarah or Emma!

ds is sooo annoyingly posh Quattrocento and he is at grammar

incidently at our grammars you can only do single sciences at gcse