Should I push my CAT4 138 DD to SPGS open day?

[swdd]

My DD is in Year 5 at an independent school, with a CAT4 score of 138 (same Year 4 and Year 5). She really loves free play, doing her own projects, and is also into chess and video games. She’s more into brain stimulation stuff and I’ve been working with her on advanced competition maths.

However, she’s quite laid-back and not naturally self-motivated. Although she has achieved Grade 8 distinction in piano, she never practises voluntarily. Her English score is good, but not very strong largely because she isn’t an avid reader, and she lacks big interest in humanities subjects.

I don't think she fits the personality of typical St Paul's Girls at 11+. (I guess anything but laidback）Although given her strong logical reasoning skills, she stands a good chance of getting into SPGS if we applied. Also, she’s not at all sporty, and SPGS is extremely strong in humanities – both are definite weak areas for her. Obviously, SPGS is much more expensive than our current school, and as a modest family it would be further financial stretch. That said, we still could sit her for SPGS, partly to test her ability, and I’ve considered 16+ entry to SPGS further down the line, as she can choose a STEM-focused Sixth Form without too worrying about the humanities. And who knows, she might be more motivated in 5 years!

But my DD is completely against it. She’s being rebellious because everyone around her raves about SPGS, and she prefers a more chilled environment, partly influenced by my concerns about the pressure there. She would not even go for the open day.

My question is: should I persuade her to at least go to the SPGS open day, or should I just drop the idea altogether?

Just drop it. It hardly sounds like somewhere she’d be happy, based on your description. Find somewhere that offers / is strong in the areas SHE enjoys.
I know it is hard, but do try not to be swayed by “this is what families with bright girls aim for” - what is important is that it suits YOUR daughter.

Why are you even considering it? You’ve listed so many reasons why it’s not a good idea and a waste of time and money! I’m a big believer in being the parent and taking responsibility for the choice of school for my child until they’re about 16. But she has expressly wished not to go, she won’t cooperate at assessments I wouldn’t have thought and therefore won’t get in anyway!
It also sounds like a terrible fit for her. There must be other schools that are just as good who play more to her strengths.

@Smartiepants79 @TeaandHobnobs

We have already unanimously concluded that we will not accept an offer from SPGS for 11+ entry, even if one is made.
However, we are not fully convinced whether visiting the school would be beneficial/harmful/useless to her vision and her future (possible consideration at 16+).

There is no harm in going to an open day even if you are not applying. It is good to see what kind of opportunities are out there. In my opinion children get inspiration from open days.

High CAT4 scores and grade 8 piano with distinction at this age is definitely a sign of a clever child. Is she getting enough challenge in her current school? Some children do better when other children are doing high standard work around them.

Maybe check Open day at Westminster, as going coed and strong in STEM or LU, Emanuel or Alleyn’s.

I don't think there is much point in visiting if you have definitely decided that you don't want your DD to go there. And I would listen to your daughter. Some children do much better being a big fish in a small pond and some much prefer not to be an outlier.

Having said that, I don't think the pressure is particularly different from other SW London girls' schools and in many ways it is less. I don't think you have to be sporty, particularly, and the split between sciences and humanities is not especially in favour of humanities as far as I can tell. For instance, the A Level with the most entries is always Maths and many more girls take that and sciences than at other similar girls' schools.

I was surprised when I looked round schools at that stage, though. There were some I thought I would love that I really really did not, and vice versa.

What I mean by pressure is this: if you look at the GCSE results at SPGS, they’re absolutely incredible – nearly every student gets a 9 in English and English Literature. At other selective schools, by contrast, maybe just over half achieve a 9. So if you don’t get a 9 at SPGS you would feel like you’ve failed, whereas at other schools that result would feel perfectly fine which would give dd more margin for error.

I know that STEM subjects in SPGS are equally exceptionally strong. I just feel their humanities curriculum goes well beyond the national syllabus which I worry could put my dd under a lot of pressure. By comparison, at a state grammar school STEM is also very strong, yet the demands for humanities are much lower. Obviously a grammar school might bring another kind of pressure from its rigid and rigorous system.

What I mean by pressure is this: if you look at the GCSE results at SPGS, they’re absolutely incredible – nearly every student gets a 9 in English and English Literature. At other selective schools, by contrast, maybe just over half achieve a 9. So if you don’t get a 9 at SPGS you would feel like you’ve failed, whereas at other schools that result would feel perfectly fine which would give dd more margin for error.

I see what you mean. It definitely comes down to personality I think. My daughter got a couple of 8s and absolutely was not bothered. They were both subjects she had no interest in and she was just happy to have passed with good grades and also that she never had to think about them again! By the time those girls take GCSEs they will have gone far beyond the GCSE syllabus in many subjects so GCSE can feel like a walk in the park in comparison, even in your weaker subjects. DD could have gone for a remark in one of her subjects that wasn't a 9 as she was only a couple of marks off, but she didn't bother as she just did not really care that much.

At SPGS results are not mentioned and nobody in the year knows anything about them except any friends you have chosen to share them with. There is a lot of effort from the school aimed at stopping girls from competing with others and instead focusing on doing their own best.

I know your daughter isn't interested in going, but just in case someone happens on this in future and is worried about that particular aspect!

I'm really not sure why you would bother looking or applying if you aren't going to accept a place there. You have a 9/10yo, I really wouldn't worry now about how motivated she will be at 15/16. Make the decision that is right for now, and visit SPGS when she is 14/15 if you think that's a good option then. She will be 50% older, plus she will have a much better understanding of the implications by then. Right now she is very much still a child. She sounds bright, and will presumably do well wherever.

It's mostly peer and parents pressure rather than coming from the school.
Yes, the approach to humanities and languages is very different from the national curriculum.
You've already decided you don't want SPGS though so what's the point 🤷‍♀️

I guess we’ll probably go to the SPGS Open Day by ourselves, without her, just to satisfy our curiosity and get some closure, while keeping SPGS a mystery for her anyway — since she doesn’t really care.

You've already decided you don't want SPGS though so what's the point 🤷‍♀️

The point of talking about pressure and humanities at SPGS is: Having ruled out 11+ entry, I’ve been looking ahead to 16+ entry, by which time humanities won’t be part of the programme. I expect she’ll top in STEM by then, so there won’t be real pressure, and she can fully make use of SPGS’s resources.(better uni destinations etc）

STEM are fairly straightforward, you could get to Oxbridge from grammar or comp, and I guess specialist maths 6th forms could be better for maths/phys/comp sci extras.

IMO teams are a mix of various schools, even Millfield that mostly turns out sports champions :)

www.imo-register.org.uk/#E2026

Interestingly, SPGS doesn't publish leaver's courses :)
spgs.org/academic/results/

If your DD gets a offer from SPGS that means she has ability to get those grades, OP! This applies to every school. If a child is not expected to achieve the required grades, they will not receive an offer from that school.

Top grades aren't the issue. What concerns me is that SPGS teaches at a high level to ensure nearly everyone gets a 9 in the main subjects. My daughter might end up among the lower-ranked students in English Literature — even though she would still get a 9 at GCSE, keeping up in daily lessons would require excessive effort. This could also take up time she could otherwise spend on her stronger subjects. I admit this concern may be unnecessary.

Yes. I find it somewhat suspicious that they only seem to disclose information selectively. For example, SPGS only lists the main academic subjects on its GCSE table, while many creative options like art and design are not included.

Oh, don't be silly. GCSEs are not that tricky for children capable of getting into these highly selective schools.

The creative subjects are all on the school-directed courses info (these courses are very different to and designed to be more challenging than GCSEs).

If you want to know what girls go on to study, I'd suggest you ask the school.

But since you don't want your daughter to go there anyway, I'm not quite sure why all the angsting as it obviously is irrelevant to you.

You seem to have commented negatively about SPGS on a number of threads without any actual experience of the school. It's a sadly predictable pattern of behaviour for those of us who do have experience with the school.

Some courses at Oxbridge have acceptance rates in the region of 50-60%. I would expect e.g quite a few MML in the actual unpublished data (I may be wrong of course).

Anyway, SPGS has some really good ideas in how they do humanities and languages e.g approaching language studies from a structural linguistics point of view allows much deeper understanding than the usual rote learning done everywhere else, in this respect I think it is actually a special school, but you could only get the benefits of such education if you join at 11+. 6th form is probably too late.

And here are leavers' destinations and courses for 2024 (took 30 seconds on google): https://spgs.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/University-Destinations-2024.pdf

Anyway, SPGS has some really good ideas in how they do humanities and languages e.g approaching language studies from a structural linguistics point of view allows much deeper understanding than the usual rote learning done everywhere else, in this respect I think it is actually a special school, but you could only get the benefits of such education if you join at 11+. 6th form is probably too late.

Agree with this. It's not only the linguistics content. It's a different educational style from most other similarly profiled schools and there is a different culture in the school and a different relationship to peers and teachers, if you are someone who is able to take advantage of this.

You seem to have commented negatively about SPGS on a number of threads without any actual experience of the school.
@BonjourCrisette

I have no intention of speaking negatively about SPGS, and I apologise if I’ve given that impression. Your take on the school has been really eye-opening and I’d love to hear more from you.

That actually confirms what I thought would be the case, thank you for the link. History, MML, Classics, Theology have ~50-60% acceptance rate. No maths at Cambridge and only one plus one comp sci at Oxford, surprisingly (girls school? mathsy girls leaving for Westminster? SPGS is big on maths though so still surprised). Med is tough of course but I would've been surprised if SPGS had none, five accepted is a good result. Nat Sci is not easy either.
A few "game the system" courses at Oxford too, but I guess it's inevitable even at SPGS.

Sorry but this is madness. You wouldn’t accept if offered but seem to have terrible FOMO? Let your DD walk away. It’s just a school. There are dozens of schools she’ll love and do well at. Why force her towards one just because of some prep test?

This I have no knowledge of as you can only live it to fully understand, but comparing homework and projects across a few London schools it is clear to me SPGS does many things differently and in many cases deeper than others. I don't necessarily agree with everything they do to structure knowledge in literature, for example, but I can understand what they're doing and why, and I find it very interesting even in earlier years. Even if I disagree on some points, I still find this type of education better for developing a well rounded and truly knowledgeable (not just exam-drilled) person.