Should I push my CAT4 138 DD to SPGS open day?

[swdd]

My DD is in Year 5 at an independent school, with a CAT4 score of 138 (same Year 4 and Year 5). She really loves free play, doing her own projects, and is also into chess and video games. She’s more into brain stimulation stuff and I’ve been working with her on advanced competition maths.

However, she’s quite laid-back and not naturally self-motivated. Although she has achieved Grade 8 distinction in piano, she never practises voluntarily. Her English score is good, but not very strong largely because she isn’t an avid reader, and she lacks big interest in humanities subjects.

I don't think she fits the personality of typical St Paul's Girls at 11+. (I guess anything but laidback）Although given her strong logical reasoning skills, she stands a good chance of getting into SPGS if we applied. Also, she’s not at all sporty, and SPGS is extremely strong in humanities – both are definite weak areas for her. Obviously, SPGS is much more expensive than our current school, and as a modest family it would be further financial stretch. That said, we still could sit her for SPGS, partly to test her ability, and I’ve considered 16+ entry to SPGS further down the line, as she can choose a STEM-focused Sixth Form without too worrying about the humanities. And who knows, she might be more motivated in 5 years!

But my DD is completely against it. She’s being rebellious because everyone around her raves about SPGS, and she prefers a more chilled environment, partly influenced by my concerns about the pressure there. She would not even go for the open day.

My question is: should I persuade her to at least go to the SPGS open day, or should I just drop the idea altogether?

Yep, I'm puzzled tbh :)

It's a pity that SPGS does not, in fact, do more to extend the more academic girls. Not to go through the curricular faster - but to go deeper.
@Sashya

Interestingly, this is precisely why I am considering moving my daughter from her current private school (a highly selective, all-through girls' school) at 11+. I feel she is lacking sufficient academic stretch there. I initially had my sights set on SPGS, but after weighing the pros and cons, I’ve realized that for a STEM-led child, the Tiffin route might actually offer better value.
You are absolutely right—at the end of the day, a school is just a school. One shouldn't be too romantic or idealistic about what they can provide. To be honest, while our prep school experience has been worth it to an extent, it has fallen short of my expectations.

At you looking a music scholarships? Distinction at Grade 8 piano in year 4 is so rare it's close to unheard of. Is she a piano prodigy?

If you're here amateur teacher, you must be incredibly musical as well.

She is not a prodigy at all. We are looking for a music scholarship in her current /similar schools as a backup plan,

But to me - it's a pity that SPGS does not, in fact, do more to extend the more academic girls. Not to go through the curricular faster - but to go deeper. To be more inquisitive, rather than do really well at exams and get into Unis.

You see, I feel that DD got absolutely loads of that! Her teachers were amazing in offering her ideas of how to extend herself and every now and then I'd get an email from a teacher saying 'she did this amazing thing, please get her to show you'. The thing she's really good at is more on the creative side, though.

There were a number of things they studied that simply did not feature on the GCSE syllabus, or they did quite a bit more of whatever the topic was than needed. DD discussed this with one of her science teachers at one point, who said 'well, some of those topics we could have taught you in a couple of lessons - we can't just do exactly what you need to know for the exam or we'd all get bored'.

She talked to teachers in the subjects she liked about what she'd been reading and got useful recommendations which she then went and discussed further.

And DD entered all kinds of national competitions based around stuff she had an interest in, especially in the last couple of years. She even won some stuff in them and got a bigger platform for the things she's good at. Most were suggested by school. Others she found off her own bat.

There is not even any sort of healthy academic competitions between Girls and Boys schools - apparently so as to not create upset.... But mostly - because no one bothers to even think about it.

I wouldn't want this at all and it would actively put me off! I don't believe academic endeavour is a race or a competition.

Having said that, DD attended a few academic events with the boys' school over the years - English conferences etc. Not sure how useful they were to her.

Do you also have sons at Westminster? From what I hear from friends, it's a much more traditional rules-bound atmosphere. It would not have suited my daughter at all.

For me the strength of SPGS and what my daughter has loved has been the emphasis on creativity, of whatever kind. Even scientists need some of that!

For me the strength of SPGS and what my daughter has loved has been the emphasis on creativity, @BonjourCrisette

Speaking of creativity, our current prep school is actually excellent at fostering it, but it comes at the expense of academic depth and healthy competition. The school is literally ZERO pressure. Although it’s a highly selective 4+ entry, I feel many of the girls are underperforming simply because there isn’t enough intellectual stimulation to stretch them.
While I haven't experienced senior school yet, my perception is that many of these selective girls' schools share a similar ethos. Have you looked at other girls schools, eg G&L or GDST schools, to spot the difference from SPGS in terms of creativity fostering?
Actually the examples you gave and your DD's spending school life enjoying extracurriculars look very similar to our experience in the current school. And the senior school looks like the same.

You have some great questions for your DD! They can be answered at the school, go to the open day & take your daughter. That’s what open days are for-to get a feel, ask the kids their experiences and have your questions answered by the teachers.

As the parent, surely you also get to suggest options for your daughter to consider.
Imho the decision should be 75%parent & 25% child. I chose my DD school & she couldn’t attend the open day, so it wasn’t top of her list. I could only show her the research & reasons why we felt it was better suited for her. She absolutely loves her school!

Zero pressure sounds great and exactly what I would choose any time. It is also what we experienced at SPGS. I don't care about pushing for academic or any other excellence at the expense of all else. It's not important given that all these girls are going to do very well with a balanced and sensible amount of effort and commitment.

From my experience looking round other schools I did not feel that any of them would suit my daughter as well as SPGS did and that is all that matters.

DD went to a state primary rather than prep school. I would not have bothered with prep school under any circumstances.

I would not have bothered with prep school under any circumstances. @BonjourCrisette

Under any circumstances? That is a very strong stance! I’ve always assumed that while private schools might not always be 'worth' the hefty fees, they generally offer a more nurturing and enriching experience than a state primary. I think that kind of supportive environment is especially important for a younger child during those early years.

In our case, we happen to live right next to a good selective private school and we happen to be able to afford it and we were too lazy to commute any further. It seemed like a sensible choice at the time. But now that she’s older I’ve started exploring other options.

It's not rare among Asian kids who do grade 8 as early as 7yo sometimes.

She doesn’t want to go, you don’t think she’ll fit in, it doesn’t cater to any of her strengths and it would stretch you financially. I’m not sure why you’re even considering it, unless it’s just an ego thing for you to say she got in?

From my experience looking round other schools I did not feel that any of them would suit my daughter as well as SPGS did

Indeed, SPGS suits YOUR DD best. But I am sure there are SPGS girls who could do even better in other schools. Your impression that SPGS has less pressure than other schools is mostly relevant to your DD, which is all that matters to YOU of course, but it might not be generalisable to all.

Yes, I absolutely would not have gone for prep school under any circumstances. DD went to the school in our area that everyone goes private to avoid and it did her absolutely no harm and quite a lot of good.

Obviously I am picking schools for my DD and not anyone else's DD. Obviously I am posting about my DD's experience since I can't comment on anyone else's. Obviously that is what matters to me!

i don't know what you mean about doing even better. As you've previously pointed out, even English Language which they don't even teach or practise until a few months before the actual GCSE gets a large majority of grade 9s.

Would holding an SPGS offer increase the chance of getting scholarship(means £££) at another school? Would it boost her confidence of academic excellence? Would it help when in 16+ we seriously consider it again if we were offer holders years ago? Would it help to just broaden her vision of a top school? Would it be an enriching life experience as the exam itself is intellectually stimulating? All of the above are more important than an ego thing.
There are aslo downsides of course, but there seems little harm considering it or discussing it on internet.

i don't know what you mean about doing even better.

GCSE grades only go up to 9, so what I meant by "better" could be anything else... Well, if you are convinced that no SPGS girls could possibly do better in other schools, then so be it.

Genuinely no idea what you mean, do feel free to elaborate.

Would holding an SPGS offer increase the chance of getting scholarship(means £££) at another school?
No.

Would it boost her confidence of academic excellence?
Maybe. Does she care? I don't think it sounds like she is that bothered.

Would it help when in 16+ we seriously consider it again if we were offer holders years ago?
Probably not. And cannot see the point of joining at this stage. You'll have missed out on a lot of the fun stuff. At this point it's just A Levels and university. If you've not been there for the past experience, you won't get the most out of these last two years.

Would it help to just broaden her vision of a top school?
Don't know what this means and it genuinely doesn't matter if she doesn't want to go there (not sure why you are still obsessing over any of it when she is not interested).

Would it be an enriching life experience as the exam itself is intellectually stimulating?
Um, maybe if your kid really likes taking exams.

Would holding an SPGS offer increase the chance of getting scholarship(means £££) at another school?

Probably, but not all schools engage in bidding wars for applicants.

Would it boost her confidence of academic excellence?

Depends on the child but there are more productive ways to boost confidence than doing exams for a school you're not going to send her to.

Would it help when in 16+ we seriously consider it again if we were offer holders years ago?

Not necessarily. They might think you're not serious about their offers.

Would it help to just broaden her vision of a top school?

Only if you actually go there.

Would it be an enriching life experience as the exam itself is intellectually stimulating?

No, exams are stressful not enriching.

No harm in discussing but kind of pointless?

DD went to the school in our area that everyone goes private to avoid and it did her absolutely no harm and quite a lot of good.

In other threads you complained about this school and you DD didn't like it. Do you think the state primary best suits your DD?
（You said you chose SPGS because it is the best fit）Do you think your.DD could not do better in prep school than in this.state primary that you don't like and everyone avoid?

No harm in discussing but kind of pointless?

@Ubertomusic

I appreciate your answers. Some are speculative and some are subjective which I might or might not agree, but far from definite or common sense answers. So I guess the discussion is not totally pointless.

@BonjourCrisette

Why would academic challenges/quizzes involving teams from SPGS and SPS put you off? These are teamwork based problem solving type events that give kids who are interested in these sort of challenges great experience.
International Maths Olympiad, for e.g. has teams of about 6 - where they solve problems together.

England does not have much of a culture of academic extension and challenges, so maybe this sounds strange and off-putting to you. But in many other countries it's normal for high achieving kids. It gives them opportunities to get deeper into subjects that they are interested in.

While I am happy kids that like music, drama and art - get to do lots with engaged teachers at SPGS. I have personally not experienced the same level of involvement from STEM teachers over the years my kids were there.
But I am not sure any other school really does it well anyway.

Westminster STEM curriculum is a lot broader than SPGS. It goes a lot broader. And it is also a traditional school in many ways, true. I think it does an excellent job with their really smart boys.

You clearly haven't read very well. She did like it. The entirety of our problems with it stemmed from SATs (not anything to do with the school).

I think DD would have had a much worse time in a prep school. I don't generally like the ethos of these places and she wasn't a conformer.

International Maths Olympiad, for e.g. has teams of about 6 - where they solve problems together. @Sashya

To be clear, in IMO they solve problems independently. But I know what you meant: they do collaborate and discuss a lot during preparation, usually under the supervision of teachers. UKMT do that for the IMO team.

Before I saw your previous comments, I would always grouped SPGS in the same bracket as St Paul’s Boys and Westminster when it came to elite-level maths. I was under the impression they’d have a similar culture of top-tier competition circles—not just the standard UKMT Maths Challenges, but a significant focus on the Olympiad level, like BMO.

This is so interesting. When I was at SPGS a long time ago, we were pushed to STEM so hard to the extent that I ended up studying a STEM subject I wasn't interested in at Oxbridge. I'm really happy that things are more balanced now.

I am not sure what you mean by England not having a culture of challenges exactly. But I'm from an immigrant background on both sides so I can absolutely assure you that my family are very used to challenges and embrace them!

Challenges and quizzes with SPS would absolutely put me off. The schools are v v v differerent. They have different approaches. DD did not enoy the joint stuff with the boys schools mainly because the boys were not as clever as her peers at the girls school and she did not appreciate being shouted down by people who were not able to engage in helpful academic discourse. I think she found the boys just shouted a lot!

We get the same negativity each year from people with no experience of the school tbh. We are used to it. No other school bar maybe Eton attracts this type of attention.It's tiring at times.

Calm down. I thought you are over sensitive to the comments about your old school. It is just a school, with pros and cons like all others. Why did you take the comments on your school so personally?