Should I push my CAT4 138 DD to SPGS open day?

[swdd]

My DD is in Year 5 at an independent school, with a CAT4 score of 138 (same Year 4 and Year 5). She really loves free play, doing her own projects, and is also into chess and video games. She’s more into brain stimulation stuff and I’ve been working with her on advanced competition maths.

However, she’s quite laid-back and not naturally self-motivated. Although she has achieved Grade 8 distinction in piano, she never practises voluntarily. Her English score is good, but not very strong largely because she isn’t an avid reader, and she lacks big interest in humanities subjects.

I don't think she fits the personality of typical St Paul's Girls at 11+. (I guess anything but laidback）Although given her strong logical reasoning skills, she stands a good chance of getting into SPGS if we applied. Also, she’s not at all sporty, and SPGS is extremely strong in humanities – both are definite weak areas for her. Obviously, SPGS is much more expensive than our current school, and as a modest family it would be further financial stretch. That said, we still could sit her for SPGS, partly to test her ability, and I’ve considered 16+ entry to SPGS further down the line, as she can choose a STEM-focused Sixth Form without too worrying about the humanities. And who knows, she might be more motivated in 5 years!

But my DD is completely against it. She’s being rebellious because everyone around her raves about SPGS, and she prefers a more chilled environment, partly influenced by my concerns about the pressure there. She would not even go for the open day.

My question is: should I persuade her to at least go to the SPGS open day, or should I just drop the idea altogether?

She doesn’t have a formal piano teacher. Her teacher is her mum, who has a full-time career completely unrelated to piano or music. She happens to be an amateur who learned piano at a very young age, and she actually played better than her daughter at the same age. And don’t assume getting Grade 8 with Distinction is extremely difficult. Having parents around means constant, immediate feedback, so progress is often more effective than normal piano lessons. We can also choose pieces that suit her hand size. After Grade 8, she is now working towards her ARSM Diploma, as well as preparing for the music scholarship for senior schools. I can also tell you she’s nowhere near pursuing a music career. There are plenty of people who play much better than her. For example, she enters local competitions, but there are always far more skilled players — piano is extremely competitive. Our goal with piano is simply for her to have a lifelong hobby with good music taste and to develop her intelligence and patience. By the way, my DD also loves playing toys like your DD, especially Jellycats, and we have so many of them at home.

I have grade 8 piano so I know it’s difficult and at that standard it’s hard to avoid big reaches, octave chords etc. I honestly think it’s an incredible achievement. At any age but particularly at the age your daughter is. It’s incredibly rare on the piano, especially without formal teaching and hothousing. You must move in very musical circles as any 9 year old at that standard would stand out as a prodigy where I live. I really am impressed.

@Candleabra
A few points. Firstly, you’re right that Grade 8 is challenging, but she only plays pieces that suit her — choosing the right repertoire is really important. I guess she can only play about 1/5 of the total Grade 8 repertoire, so that selection matters a lot. Also, I don’t think it’s that rare. I’ve found quite a few girls around her age at her prep school who are at Grade 8 level on piano, violin or cello.

To be honest, my DD is nowhere near the musical circle either, except for her mom. I think maybe because you’re an adult, you forget how easily children can pick up an instrument. Kids don’t overthink things. Take chess for example. Even though I feel I have the upper hand in general intelligence and knowledge compared to a kid, including my understanding of chess, I still can’t beat the best of them. That’s probably because they have this very childlike, instinctive grab or ‘muscle memory’ for it. I believe it’s the same with piano. Although you and my DD are both at Grade 8, I think you as a adult have a much deeper understanding of music, a far wider repertoire, and are probably more skilled.

I agree about repertoire, and I do get what you’re saying about learning things more easily as a kid. But honestly piano is so much harder just because it’s a standard sized instrument. It is more common (though still exceptional) for stringed instrument musicians to reach a high grade early because you can play on a smaller instrument (3/4 size or suchlike). You really shouldn’t dismiss her achievement as being normal or usual, it really isn’t. Anyway, I hope she continues to enjoy playing, and good luck to your school choices for your exceptional little girl. (And we love jelly cats in our house too!)

Some children at top schools like SPGS do diploma on piano aged 7-8 🤷‍♀️
It's not like all of them or even 50% but it's not unheard of.

I know quite a few girls at SPGS were already in the JD before entering the school. My DD might be never up for the JD, as her preferred maximum daily practice time is 1 hour (recently down to 45 minutes), while the JD’s recommendation is 2 hours.

I bring you the unwelcome news that the Jellycat obsession appears never to end. DD is not even at school any longer and still acquiring them at a rate of knots.

JDs are not necessarily obsessed with grades (well, depends on the teacher) as they aim to develop musicians, and in music everything is done by auditions anyway, certificates are more or less irrelevant. Many children play volumes of ungraded rep or all grade pieces instead of just three for the exam or learn concerti, it varies a lot depending on the teacher, child's strengths an weaknesses, family priorities etc. Practice time can also differ from the standard expectations, in both directions.

I'm not talking about 11+ scholarships, this may vary and some schools want to see certificates. Piano is not an orchestral instrument so there is a bit of disadvantage in terms of scholarships but your DD will be fine.

"Some children at top schools like SPGS do diploma on piano aged 7-8 🤷‍♀️
It's not like all of them or even 50% but it's not unheard of."

Is this true? Got any statistics rather than hearsay?

That’s not the same as saying they are not 2 full A levels.

For medicine, where certain subjects are specified, they want to see 2 sciences. In that case French and German with Chemistry wouldn’t work either. But it’s not because they’re not full A levels.

I haven’t looked for other courses, but which ones say they don’t accept Maths and Further Maths? Isn’t it more the case that they want you to study sufficient subjects relevant to their course rather than saying they don’t see Maths and Further Maths as full A levels?

It would be fair to say that taking Maths and Further Maths as 2 of 3 A levels narrows your options thereafter but that’s not the same as saying they are not 2 full A levels.

At my DC school, the head of maths is forever reiterating that the assumption that Further Maths is less work if you’re already doing Maths and have always had an aptitude for maths, is false. He sees far too many year 13s tearing their hair out, struggling, when they would have sailed through any other A level. It’s incredibly difficult and should actually in my opinion be recategorised as a Super A Level.

I agree that Further Maths is a 'Super A level' but I also don’t view Maths and Further Maths as two distinct A-levels in the practical sense. If you are hardcore and genuinely gifted at Maths(presumably you wouldn’t touch Further Maths unless you were aiming for at least an A) then standard Maths requires just minimum preparation time to get a top grade.
In reality, the A/A* rate for Further Maths is incredibly high; even in schools that aren't top-tier, you’ll see success rates hitting nearly 100%, albeit with a smaller cohort. Maths and Physics are among the few A-levels where, if you have the natural aptitude, you don't actually need to sink a massive amount of time into revision.
But for anyone eyeing Cambridge for Maths related courses, you're looking at STEP and that is a completely different beast compared to the A-level curriculum.

It's not as high as you think.
https://analytics.ofqual.gov.uk/apps/Alevel/Outcomes/

I was talking about some schools that are not 'top-tier,' but ones my DD might still consider.

https://www.wimbledonhigh.gdst.net/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/A-Level-Results-by-subject-as-of-19.09.25.jpg

https://www.putneyhigh.gdst.net/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/Results-table-2025_V6.pdf

https://www.latymer-upper.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/GCSE-A-Level-Results-August-2024-WEB.pdf

Yes, I got it but you also made some assumptions that are too simplistic - "Maths and Physics are among the few A-levels where, if you have the natural aptitude, you don't actually need to sink a massive amount of time into revision".

My DS has ASD and is highly gifted in maths - exams are a different matter. You need to show your working out for example and "natural" mathematicians often struggle to do that as they just "know" the answer.

There are other nuances too.

Putney is not the best fit for a mathsy girl imo.

Agree with @Ubertomusic , Putney at this time not strong in Maths. Wimbledon only top set gets to do triple science.
GDST do 9 levels, 10 with further maths GCSEs.
LU now doesn’t do GCSEs only internal exams, so a bit marmite for families.
Check out Emanuel, Westminster and City of London they do more GCSEs.
Assuming the Dulwich schools too far, otherwise JAGs and Alleyn's should be on the list.

Just to clarify- at Wimbledon you don’t have to take all 3 Sciences but it’s nothing to do with ‘top sets’. You can just choose not to. The majority still do. There is no such thing as ‘top sets’ anyway- except for Maths.

I cannot comment on your agreement with @Ubertomusic (if you refer to other nuances, I wholeheartedly support it).

But on the number and types of GCSEs, I think worth clarifying a few things. It is not true that only top set do triple science at WHS (girls choose a minimum of two sciences, but there is no double science option as such in the way it is done in most schools and definitely not choices on the basis of ability)... PHS girls can do the same but can also do 3 sciences in the 'double science guise' (i.e counting as 2 GCSEs). More generally, on the number of GCSEs at GDST schools, it varies (and there are other girls beyond those doing Further Maths, [which incidentally, it is not done as a GCSE], doing more than 9 - for instance, a PHS girl doing 3 sciences plus the other required 4 options will be doing 10, and that is pretty standard. It is a bit of a myth that GDST schools have the same curriculum - number, range and flexibility of GCSEs varies.
As for Emanuel doing more GCSEs,, students doing double science (and no further maths) will be doing 9. As above, it depends on the child. In all those schools, plenty of kids doing additional languages beyond the 'scheduled' GCSEs.

Beyond that, I am personally not convinced that looking at the number of GCSEs is a useful indicator of the intellectual challenge provided by a school in general or, more particularly, for the type of girl being discussed. On that vein, worth considering also which other curricular (e.g. non-examined courses or activities) or extra-curricular provision.

For a bilingual and very musical child, she will want a school that does enough GCSEs as standard. It’s an easy 9 in Music and her native language (on the side if not one of the European ones). Add in AdMaths (that is more than a GCSE and help for FM at A level but only the most academic schools even offer it) or Further Maths GCSE she is looking at 11 or 12 GCSEs.
The grammar DS is at only does triple science and 10.5 GCSEs minimum, those doing Further Maths are doing 11.5. Plenty then do their native language too. Only top set does AdMaths if they want to- it covers a fair bit of the A level syllabus, or so DD tells me who is in year 12 doing Maths and FM.

My nephew is in top set in public school and says a lot of the teachers go off piste regularly and semi sneer at the GCSEs. Like it’s something for commoners. However, my nephew then borrowed all my DD’s notes - as at the end of the day the kids want to pass well and get into good unis. It’s really no surprise that the work ethic and pass the exams well ethos instilled in grammar school is now translating to more elite uni places than some of the best private schools. The going deeper can be left to A level and reading widely around your subject is encouraged in most excellent state sixth forms too these days.

Putney High and Wimbledon High seem so similar to me. Is there any specific reason why one might have a better maths environment than the other?

Sorry I won't go into details as people get defensive about their schools and the thread will be flooded with arguments I have no appetite for. We can clearly see opposite opinions on SPGS from the actual parents so individual journeys even within the same school may differ a lot.

I just considered both schools for DD and did my research based not only on data (stats can be very misleading) but having friends at schools, comparing homework, speaking with teachers etc, and I added "in my opinion" to my comment :)

This has to be the longest thread about one child choosing a school in the history of mumsnet.

I completely agree with @Ubertomusic - beyond the stats, the schools can feel quite different on certain fronts at least to quite a few parents (us, for instance).

Although our DD is at WHS (and it was a very conscious decision) and she (and us) are very happy, we know plenty of families that are equally happy at PHS. As with many things, not better / worse, it just depends on the DD.

@JustAnotherView

Do the top set girls at WHS/PHS sit the Level 3 Additional Maths as well as the Level 2 Further Maths?

DD at WHS is lower in the school so no direct experience as yet - my understanding is that
AQA Further Maths (which I think is level 2) is offered to around 1/3 to 1/2 (top sets) . Usually all entered tend to get 7-9. There maybe other options but I am not sure.

When we looked around, I remember Emanuel was quite similar.
Not sure about other schools. I recall that information on Additional Maths being quite sparse in terms of numbers entered and results, hence why I distinctly recall WHS and Emanuel.

DD loved Additional Maths (they didn't do the Level 2 one). It was quite challenging for her but overall she was glad she did it. It was offered to everyone who wanted to take it. She was actually in the bottom maths group but moved up a group so she could do the Add Maths since they weren't going to be covering the content in the bottom group. She got a decent grade but it was quite hard work for her as it's definitely not the thing she is best at. Further Maths isn't available at SPGS but she would probably have enjoyed that too.