Should I push my CAT4 138 DD to SPGS open day?

[swdd]

My DD is in Year 5 at an independent school, with a CAT4 score of 138 (same Year 4 and Year 5). She really loves free play, doing her own projects, and is also into chess and video games. She’s more into brain stimulation stuff and I’ve been working with her on advanced competition maths.

However, she’s quite laid-back and not naturally self-motivated. Although she has achieved Grade 8 distinction in piano, she never practises voluntarily. Her English score is good, but not very strong largely because she isn’t an avid reader, and she lacks big interest in humanities subjects.

I don't think she fits the personality of typical St Paul's Girls at 11+. (I guess anything but laidback）Although given her strong logical reasoning skills, she stands a good chance of getting into SPGS if we applied. Also, she’s not at all sporty, and SPGS is extremely strong in humanities – both are definite weak areas for her. Obviously, SPGS is much more expensive than our current school, and as a modest family it would be further financial stretch. That said, we still could sit her for SPGS, partly to test her ability, and I’ve considered 16+ entry to SPGS further down the line, as she can choose a STEM-focused Sixth Form without too worrying about the humanities. And who knows, she might be more motivated in 5 years!

But my DD is completely against it. She’s being rebellious because everyone around her raves about SPGS, and she prefers a more chilled environment, partly influenced by my concerns about the pressure there. She would not even go for the open day.

My question is: should I persuade her to at least go to the SPGS open day, or should I just drop the idea altogether?

This kind of response always makes me laugh; it treats the other parent like a fool who knows nothing about educational psychology and clueless about life in general. This way of replying is probably as irresponsible as their parenting—it’s not even worth a rebuttal.

Check out Westminster, LU, Emanuel and Alleyn’s Open days see the STEM difference for coed London vs All Girls London.
One aspect I notice is that some schools only top sets do Additional Maths at GCSE and external competitions whilst other schools for those on track of 7/8/9 at GCSES are encouraged to give it a go, even though they not top sets. Lots of completions and field trips.
It seems you keen on single sex and SPGS, but worth going and comparing what is on offer at coed and maybe City London Girl as well.

@Sashya Not a new parent, but yes to only having experience of one educational system.

I think we have different definitions and priorities, as I said. I’m not convinced that external competitions and teacher led activities are the best way to nurture a love of learning and engagement in any subject, STEM or not.

If your dd wants a robotics club, she could find a group of interested girls and a teacher, make a plan and set it up. If it’s just that you want her to be in one, and she’s not that keen, then I can see your problem, but I don’t think that imposing the interest on her is a good thing. I can see that for both you and the OP, having more STEM stuff on tap is desirable to encourage your daughters to do more of it, but that assumes that it’s better for them to do more STEM than drama or music or whatever. I don’t agree that STEM has more intrinsic value.

I told my dd exactly this about a niche interest of hers - it’s up to her to make it happen, if she cares that much. I’m sure there will be a teacher willing to help and the school has plenty of resources.

Also an SPGS parent her…
@HighRopes - we can discuss what is more valuable STEM or Arts. But it does not change the fact than when 11yo new girls arrive at the school - there is a well established network of activities and clubs supporting artistic and sporting pursuits. All
organised and run by adults.
And the same is not true for STEM.

There is no culture of valuing or providing it in girls schools. Chicken and egg, most likely.

I am not sure it is fair to expect 11yos starting school to feel mature and confident to ‘organise’ themselves a club and get teachers involved…
Why don’t we cancel all creative and sports activities - annual plays, teams etc and wait for the kids to organise it all from scratch - rather than the structure being there….

I had to take my kid to weekend STEM clubs, as school had nothing on offer. And for a leading girls school in the country, and the price of education there - it is, disappointing to say the least.

Maybe the 11 year olds are being offered the sporting and artistic clubs in response to many parents attitudes to non-STEM subjects? ie- they just don’t matter.

These SPGS threads always blow my mind. It’s one school in a City full of great schools. Great school for some, not so great for others.

DD was at an all girls schools. Nothing on earth was going to make her study Physics or Chemistry at A level. Same for my DS at his Co-Ed school. They both had inspiring teachers, access to clubs, opportunities etc but much prefer Humanities. God knows what the futures going to hold for any of our kids but we don’t need them to all to do STEM subjects at A level and beyond.

And the same is not true for STEM.
There is no culture of valuing or providing it in girls schools. Chicken and egg, most likely. @jsku

It is surprising that a school like SPGS does not seem to champion formal STEM clubs. I know some GDST schools have very active STEM clubs and are much more explicit about promoting them. While it might feel like branding, it is certainly visible.

I suspect SPGS operates differently, focusing less on the club label and more on high level academic challenges like the Maths Olympiad. I do remember a girl from SPGS on the IMO team a few years back who went on to MIT. Also, SPGS is incredibly strong in Chess. They have won the UK Schools Girl Chess Championship for two consecutive years and have players with very high Elo ratings. Can this level of dominance be attributed to selection alone? I don't know.

Maybe the 11 year olds are being offered the sporting and artistic clubs in response to many parents attitudes to non-STEM subjects? ie- they just don’t matter. @isspringaspringing

It is just my pet theory. With fees skyrocketing over the last decade and the addition of VAT, private schools like SPGS seem to focus more on arts and humanities to justify their high fees. This is where they can offer higher added value compared to state schools. Also, as in SPGS the student demographic becomes even wealthier, parents may be more accepting of non-practical subjects like Humanities.

This attitude is exactly why UK is behind in education and, as a result, in innovative technologies and medicine, etc.
Not just in STEM education for girls.

And as to SPGS specifically - no. They do what they do with arts and sports because it’a been like this for a long time.
They would say they push STEM and point out to the new initiatives - like the dreaded CT and CS. As someone already mentioned those are poorly run and not getting better.

There are no structured STEM clubs not because parents don’t want them - but rather because there is no leadership or initiative.

@swdd
I suspect SPGS operates differently, focusing less on the club label and more on high level academic challenges like the Maths Olympiad

those girls performing at that level are NOT because of the school. They do their own stuff outside of school.
Same for chess.

They no almost nothing for UKMT, or MO.
In top sets - they go faster than middle sets. So - when they go too far ahead and need to spend a few lessons waiting for the rest of the year to catch up - they may practice some past papers. But that ia about it.

I remember being on a tour of the senior school of our current prep. I specifically asked about their maths competitions, and the Head and some students mentioned their JMC and Kangaroo preparation group. At the time, I found the level a bit underwhelming, as I’d always assumed SPGS would be operating at a JMO level by default. Thank you for clearing up that myth for me—it seems I’ve been using a romanticised version of SPGS as the gold standard all along! And as it turns out, our current school is actually doing a decent job！

I have a different theory :) Traditionally, English elites have been studying Humanities - history, geography, classics, philosophy are seen as more befitting the ruling class. Engineering, maths, sciences are for middle classes that would historically go on to work in the industry and trade, not politics. Elite schools are trying to preserve this tradition but have been under the increasing pressure from their changing demographics for quite some time now. That's probably why many elite schools now offer stronger STEM but historically it wasn't their priority hence is not in their DNA so to speak.

That 'Public School' DNA you mentioned is much more related to the ancient foundations like Eton, Harrow, or Westminster. But SPGS, being founded in 1904, has a different legacy—one rooted in producing pioneering scientists like Rosalind Franklin. (It is funny you mentioned DNA ：) ) Yes indeed SPGS is related to St Pauls（boys), so your theory is also partly right.

Yes, girls schools are slightly different, I agree.
I haven't researched SPGS history tbh but music school was established by no other than Holst and the organ installed much earlier than science block 😁

Organ installed much earlier than science block @Ubertomusic

That's evidence enough for your theory. And when I looked into their alumni, I was surprised to find it dominated by non-scientists.

@jsku- we just differ. My attitude is that it will be a soulless world if noone studies History, English, Drama, Art, Classics etc etc. Some DCs live and breathe Science, that’s fine, but it’s also fine not to! Doing double maths, Chem, Bio at A level doesn’t make you better or cleverer than someone doing History, French and Drama for example.

You missed the point. No one is against the arts and humanities. People view an elite school like SPGS as a ‘buffet provider’; even if few people choose certain dishes, you should still provide them. The lack of strong STEM provision fails to meet the expectations of many parents. You might be a happy customer, but the 'restaurant' (whether SPGS or UK girls' schools in general) is being viewed as inadequate.

I didn’t miss the point. You’ve basically said your Y5 daughter will be doing STEM post 16 whether she likes it or not. And there will be many other parents at SPGS and other schools thinking the same. I know quite a few DCs whose parents chose their STEM A levels for them, despite it not being what they wanted to do. It doesn’t always end well.

I am not saying humanities have no value or should not be provided at an excellent level.
They are.

But I am surprised that you suggest that STEM subjects have no value and a school like SPGS should not be providing STEM subjects and additional activities at the same excellent level like the creative subject for the girls interested in such technical subjects.. Which the school so clearly fails to even attempt to do.

And on a broader, country level - if you don’t innovate in technology - don’t grow your own talent, don’t invest in it - you’ll always be dependent on others. And in this current fractioning world it’s not the best strategy for a country that remembers the old glory days of being important.

On that note, you should not choose any subject for your kid, whether STEM over humanities or vice versa. I am just reasonably predicting her future trajectory based on her current ability and interest. I will not force her to do anything! A bit of a nudge and some resource bias from me, yes.

@jsku- of course I’m not saying that STEM subjects have no value. I think STEM and Humanities and the Arts etc have equal
value. I’m talking about the opinions of many parents that STEM subjects are more important and harder. Both my DCs nearly did maths A level and that would have been absolutely fine. In the end, although they are very good at it they didn’t enjoy it enough to study it to a higher level.
They are/ were at schools that valued STEM and Humanities equally and have friends doing everything from Aeronautical Engineering to Fine Art. All super clever, just in different ways.

@isspringaspringing

To be clear, my daughter has shown no interest in the humanities for years. The fact that she is interested in STEM and has a natural aptitude for it is the primary reason behind my planning. I admit there are also.practical concerns like job prospects, but everything in the end is.based on her own ability and interest.

Good to know. But if she doesn’t want to go to SPGS I wouldn’t bother taking her round ( which was the original question!).
Lots of other schools around.

the opinions of many parents that STEM subjects are more important and harder

Interestingly, I thought Humanities are harder. STEM is easier for my DD so that it suits her.

She will visit the Westminster open day like a tourist. Maybe SPGS as well—and who knows, she might even sit the exams, precisely because she might never go there again. After some helpful discussions here, I just feel it is no big deal at all. Let’s wait and see if the weather is good that day.

Humanities are definitely harder :) Standard maths is straightforward at school and uni level, olympiad maths requires lateral thinking but those who do olympiads have the required aptitude anyway.

Chem is similar to maths as it's formulaic, biology as it's being taught in the UK requires a lot of memorisation but not much else intellectually, and only physics may be tricky at higher levels.

Humanities are like quicksands :)