Should I push my CAT4 138 DD to SPGS open day?

[swdd]

My DD is in Year 5 at an independent school, with a CAT4 score of 138 (same Year 4 and Year 5). She really loves free play, doing her own projects, and is also into chess and video games. She’s more into brain stimulation stuff and I’ve been working with her on advanced competition maths.

However, she’s quite laid-back and not naturally self-motivated. Although she has achieved Grade 8 distinction in piano, she never practises voluntarily. Her English score is good, but not very strong largely because she isn’t an avid reader, and she lacks big interest in humanities subjects.

I don't think she fits the personality of typical St Paul's Girls at 11+. (I guess anything but laidback）Although given her strong logical reasoning skills, she stands a good chance of getting into SPGS if we applied. Also, she’s not at all sporty, and SPGS is extremely strong in humanities – both are definite weak areas for her. Obviously, SPGS is much more expensive than our current school, and as a modest family it would be further financial stretch. That said, we still could sit her for SPGS, partly to test her ability, and I’ve considered 16+ entry to SPGS further down the line, as she can choose a STEM-focused Sixth Form without too worrying about the humanities. And who knows, she might be more motivated in 5 years!

But my DD is completely against it. She’s being rebellious because everyone around her raves about SPGS, and she prefers a more chilled environment, partly influenced by my concerns about the pressure there. She would not even go for the open day.

My question is: should I persuade her to at least go to the SPGS open day, or should I just drop the idea altogether?

Do you mean SPGS is the only school in the UK doing this kind of teaching?

That's a strange question. I don't know every single school in the UK obviously (I doubt even specialist consultants know all of them).
I'm able to compare with some top schools in London that are accidentally also among the top schools nationally so roughly in the same league as SPGS.

I was referring of course to top private schools—those with sufficient resources and a highly selective intake, enabling them to deliver that kind of in-depth academic experience in language studies.

SPGS has some really good ideas in how they do humanities and languages e.g approaching language studies from a structural linguistics point of view allows much deeper understanding than the usual rote learning done everywhere else

@Ubertomusic

I wonder if SPGS use of this distinctive, university‑style structural linguistic approach is related to it being a girls’ school. Whereas at top boy schools like Westminster or St Paul’s Boys, their humanities teaching tends to be more practical.

So I think — and this is just my speculation — if a girl is very into humanities from an early age, SPGS’s approach would suit her extremely well. On the other hand, my dd is very into STEM and has little interest in humanities and I honestly struggle to see how much added value this kind of structural analysis would bring for her. What feels comfortable and natural for your dd at SPGS might create pressure for my dd and there is no contradiction in that. SPGS is obviously a great school, but it just isn’t right for everyone. (Again, just my speculation. Apologies if I have offended anyone.)

Yes, if we're talking about languages, it's everywhere else. I think it's common knowledge that the quality of teaching languages is notoriously poor in the UK and it's mainly rote learning without deeper understanding of how a language actually functions, even for European languages, let alone other linguistic groups. That's why British school children struggle so much with German for example - it's really hard to rote learn German if you don't understand its deeper structure, and it's simply not being taught the right way.
Latin can help a bit but not with Asian languages or Arabic. You have to approach languages as systems/structures to gain transferrable linguistic skills. Then you would be able to learn Albanian, Hungarian that are in a world of their own, or artificial languages that don't have "conversational topics" at all, and understanding of artificial languages opens up comp sci and AI, or behavioural sciences as they're interconnected with the language, or emerging interdisciplinary fields and so on...
Studying languages is not about going on a holiday and being able to maintain a basic chat with the locals.

the quality of teaching languages is notoriously poor in the UK and it's mainly rote learning without deeper understanding of how a language actually functions,

Perhaps the necessity of learning a language is what matters most. First of all, English is essential as a foreign language in many non‑English speaking country. Then, I think French is quite useful in Canada, and Spanish is helpful in the US. But in the UK, English alone is probably enough. I guess teaching language is also poor in Australia and New Zealand?

@swdd

I am not sure what you mean by SPGS's unnecessary focus on humanities at GSCE level, and going well beyond national curriculum. They don't.
Westminster does that with their boys - where they don't bother with the GSCE text for the 1st year of GSCE - they read and analyse whatever their teachers deem useful. And then cover the GSCE's English lit text in the 2nd year....
At SPGS - they do the curriculum, and practice for 2 years. And they have bright kids - hence the results.

Truth is - GSCEs are not that difficult for the bright kids. Mine are all STEM and hate humanities. Would rather do pages of maths problems than write an essay. But with practice - and this is what SPGS does - they learn what they need to do to ace those exams.

As to the languages - there is NO special or innovative language teaching at SPGS. It's average to poor, in my expedience. But given the generally low quality of language teaching in the UK - the level SPGS has is good enough for top grades.

Are more of SPGS leavers go to study humanities - yes. It's a structural issue in the UK with girls. It's not different for any other school - private of state, except maybe the Kings Maths School ...and I wonder what their % of girls is.

But my kids at SPGS were always STEM focused and not sporty. There is no one type of SPGS girl. And there were plenty of girls like them - going off to do engineering, physics, chemistry and medicine at Unis. Nor many went to do pure maths, true. But, again, that is not unusual for women in maths overall.

You don't need to force your DD to apply to SPGS, or convince yourself of anything. And there are plenty of things I don't like about the school as a parent who's been around it for many years now.

But some sport of extra pressure on humanities that would somehow distract your DD from STEM is a really artificially constructed idea, that is simply wrong...

Almost the entire year take A level maths. Given that, its hard to argue the school is tilted towards the humanities, but I would agree it has excellent humanities and language teaching, and clearly values those subjects as much as STEM. I think OP will be happier with a school that prioritises STEM.

At GCSE they have to study English and a modern language. The other four options are open - girls can avoid arts / humanities to a great extent. What I’ve seen happen is girls who are strongly encouraged into STEM by parents who have pushed maths from an early age, discovering through their fourth choice GCSE a love for music, or history of art, or drama. It’s part of the breadth the school offers, which is greatest in the first three years when they’re unconstrained by the GCSE syllabus (you end up in the silly situation that they study much more interesting and complex stuff in Y9, before GCSEs) but which they try to retain right through.

At A level, I’ve observed some girls whose parents would prefer them to do pure STEM A levels arguing to retain one art subject. And the school’s advice is to choose the subjects you love at A level. Which explains why there are quite a few doing arts and humanities degrees, without assuming it’s to ‘game the system’. If you’re taught well, and in an environment which values arts and humanitities as much as STEM subjects, then its not surprising you might choose to study them further.

I am not sure what you mean by SPGS's unnecessary focus on humanities at GSCE level, and going well beyond national curriculum. They don't.
As to the languages - there is NO special or innovative language teaching at SPGS. It's average to poor, in my expedience.
@Sashya

Thank you for sharing your direct experience of SPGS. I'm getting a bit confused now because you're contradicting two of the previous posters @BonjourCrisette and @Ubertomusic ). They both seem to know their stuff, and one of them is also a SPGS mum.

Are more of SPGS leavers go to study humanities - yes. It's a structural issue in the UK with girls. It's not different for any other school - private of state, except maybe the Kings Maths School ...and I wonder what their % of girls is.

Looking at a top grammar like Tiffin Girls, it seems far more leavers head into STEM rather than humanities. Even at GCSE level, the STEM subjects results look significantly stronger than the humanities—which is why my DD is actually most interested in this school.

But some sport of extra pressure on humanities that would somehow distract your DD from STEM is a really artificially constructed idea, that is simply wrong...

That’s so good to know! Perhaps I'm just overthinking it, but it’s really helpful to hear from someone whose DD is a similar STEM-focused type to mine.
Can I ask if your daughter is very self-motivated at Y5/Y6? I'm feeling a bit of pressure because mine isn't particularly proactive with her learning, at this moment. I know SPGS is famously liberal and they don't really have clear/strict rule as grammar schools do, so I'm worried she might struggle if she's expected to be an independent learner from the beginning, especially in her weak subjects. Are these concerns also atrificially constructed by me?

Are these concerns also atrificially constructed by me?

Yes. But as you are not planning to send her to SPGS I'm not sure why it matters to you.

A significant number of girls in schools like this are from wealthy international backgrounds and (as referred to above) are encouraged to play to their strengths at A level and presumably have relative freedom about choosing uni courses on account of this (disagree about “gaming the system courses” though, show me a teenager who cares that much about Oxbridge they will work very hard for 3-4 years on a niche degree they really aren’t interested in. Instead you’ll find young women without pressure of debt with freedom to make choices). Tiffin has a very different demographic and the sciences are pushed hard in many families as the only acceptable path with the girls steered firmly towards them.

Yes you are right, it is just a school.

Right, maybe it doesnt matter to me anymore....

It's interesting re. languages as I've seen homework similar to this https://www.uklo.org/past-exam-papers/ , part of it is basic structural linguistics and a bit of logic, and it would be difficult to figure out some answers with no previous teaching of some principles. The HW was not for clubs but it looks like not for everyone either? I understand there are sort of streams within the school so may be that's the reason but at least this type of tasks were made available/set by the school.

I have no skin in the game as my DD is specialising in music and dance but I'm generally interested in education so always curious to know about different schools and their approaches.

https://www.uklo.org/past-exam-papers/
Linguistic Olympiad?It sounds very interesting. More like puzzle solving than normal literature analysis.

my DD is specialising in music and dance but I'm generally interested in education

@Ubertomusic

Can I digress a bit and ask you a question regarding music schools? Is it completely waste of time if I sit my DD in JD auditions, given that1. she is determined not to specialise in music and 2.JDs are almost impossible to get in, especially for piano? DD got piano Grade8 distinction in Year 4 purely by amateur parent home teaching. Just want to open her eyes in professional music academies.

I'm no expert on piano studies, you'll get more answers on the music thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/extra_curricular_activities/5502662-spring-summer-2026-music-thread

I understand there are sort of streams within the school

@Ubertomusic I don't think there are streams (unless they are very recent since the new High Mistress started). The only subject that is set to my knowledge is Maths.

I seem to remember DD getting homework similar to that in Year 7 which is when they did the linguistics course and the taster courses for different languages. They also have problems like this in the entrance exam.

Oh I didn't mean sets, more something like groups of special interests eg. those more interested in humanities or STEM or sport etc and they would be doing more extensions in their field of interest, and therefore individual educational journeys within the school would look different. I may be wrong though.
I don't know of any other top school that does a linguistics course, especially for younger ones.

Oh, I see. I don't know about that really. DD's journey through the school was more defined by her extra-curricular activities than anything else tbh. But there are definitely lots of opportunities to get involved in pretty much anything you have an interest in! And I like very much how if the thing you want to do doesn't exist they are perfectly happy for anyone to start a club or magazine or other activity. DD started something up while she was there and met really lovely like-minded people in other years as a result.

Look - Tiffin a a different demographic, for sure. You can see it by the fact that the top destination - about 20% is medicine. And another 10% (ish) is law.
From what I heard - Henrietta Barnett also has medicine as one of the top destinations.

As to SPGS - there is way too much made up lore and misconceptions about the school. In the end of the day - it's just a selective school that picks high IQ girls - who can afford to pay for the good quality education. And a handful of bursaries.

It does NOT do huge amounts of enrichment. It does not try to teach off curriculum. The results you see, especially at GSCEs - are specifically BECAUSE it does not. It just makes sure the bright girls do what they need to do to get top results within the curriculum.

@Ubertomusic - the language Olympiad link you posted is an optional thing. No prep needed - and they sign up for fun. Many at SPGS are multilingual, and also a lot of them like solving puzzles - which is what those linguistic tasks are more alike.
The actual regular teaching of languages at SPGS is at the usual UK level, and poor, in my opinion. But I speak more than one language myself, so probably am a harsher critic than average.

@swdd as to being self-starter at Y4-5-6.... These are very young girls we are talking about. Maybe there are kids of tiger parents that are expected to be. Mine were curious, and loved reading. But at the same times they were kids and loved their friends and playing. Did they only chose doing educational activities that were enriching? Of course not. But at the same time - they were obviously bright and liked learning - did programming and robotics.

In the end of the day - schools like Tiffin, SPGS, and other high performing schools will all have pressures that these girls would feel. And most of if will be self-imposed. They will all know they are in top selective schools that delivers excellent results. And they'll know that those will be expected off them.
So - pick the school that works for your family/DD - based on all factors that matter to you - financial, academic, geographical, etc. And remember that when you go to visit schools - you are looking at a one snapshot on one day. And it is in NO way predictive of what experience your child will have in a school - which will be more due to their friendship group/specific teachers combination that you will not able to predict or control.

Strange how differently two families can experience the same environment.

Strange how differently two families can experience the same environment.
@BonjourCrisette

Is the discrepancy due to girl's STEM vs. Humanities focus, or perhaps a reflection of different personalities and family backgrounds?

TBH I’ve researched intensively on MN since considering SPGS long time ago,and the views are often mixed. The keyword 'pressure' do appear in accounts from SPGS mums and former Paulinas that it’s clearly more than just my own speculation. Of course, there’s an alternative school of thought—one you seem to lean towards—that SPGS actually offers less pressure due to its liberal teaching style, which seems also make sense...

@BonjourCrisette I agree that there are a lot of extra-curriculars. Lot's of sport - for those who are interested. Lots of musical opportunities - within the school and some joint with boys school. There is Drama too - for those who are interested to be involved in productions.
As you said - your daughter's path through school was shaped by extra-curriculars. And I agree that there is lots of that.

But to me - it's a pity that SPGS does not, in fact, do more to extend the more academic girls. Not to go through the curricular faster - but to go deeper. To be more inquisitive, rather than do really well at exams and get into Unis.
We don't see teams of SPGS girls participating in Maths or Sciences competitions at National level, for eg. They do the Maths challenges, sure. And at Six Form - they do the Physics and Chemistry challenges. But not much before that.

There is not even any sort of healthy academic competitions between Girls and Boys schools - apparently so as to not create upset.... But mostly - because no one bothers to even think about it.

It may sound like I do not like the school, but it's not quite the case. I feel that it can be more - especially given the sort of kids they get at 11, and the quality of teaches they largely have.

And, I do think Westminster has more of the sort of deeper approach to education. Sadly, my girls are too old to benefit from it. Yes, they could have gone to there for Six Form - but most of the benefit of what I am talking about would be actually in middle-GSCEs years. The Six Form is a short stretch to do as much as you can in the first year to apply to Unis in the fall of second year. And then prepping for delivering the grades. So - not the time for going wide.