Should I push my CAT4 138 DD to SPGS open day?

[swdd]

My DD is in Year 5 at an independent school, with a CAT4 score of 138 (same Year 4 and Year 5). She really loves free play, doing her own projects, and is also into chess and video games. She’s more into brain stimulation stuff and I’ve been working with her on advanced competition maths.

However, she’s quite laid-back and not naturally self-motivated. Although she has achieved Grade 8 distinction in piano, she never practises voluntarily. Her English score is good, but not very strong largely because she isn’t an avid reader, and she lacks big interest in humanities subjects.

I don't think she fits the personality of typical St Paul's Girls at 11+. (I guess anything but laidback）Although given her strong logical reasoning skills, she stands a good chance of getting into SPGS if we applied. Also, she’s not at all sporty, and SPGS is extremely strong in humanities – both are definite weak areas for her. Obviously, SPGS is much more expensive than our current school, and as a modest family it would be further financial stretch. That said, we still could sit her for SPGS, partly to test her ability, and I’ve considered 16+ entry to SPGS further down the line, as she can choose a STEM-focused Sixth Form without too worrying about the humanities. And who knows, she might be more motivated in 5 years!

But my DD is completely against it. She’s being rebellious because everyone around her raves about SPGS, and she prefers a more chilled environment, partly influenced by my concerns about the pressure there. She would not even go for the open day.

My question is: should I persuade her to at least go to the SPGS open day, or should I just drop the idea altogether?

Completely agree. I’ve secretly been ruminating on the idea of her choosing Maths, Further Maths, and Physics A-levels. My daughter is so laid-back, and I predict it would take very little effort for her to ace them all in sixth form. This would leave her plenty of time for her social life or more advanced projects.

@Ubertomusic

Actually, I was very into the humanities myself. However, having been brought up in a different culture with no formal training beyond my own reading, I found them nearly impossible to grasp—it’s exactly like your quicksand metaphor.

I should add that DD's CAT4 138 is the mean score; she achieved 141—the maximum possible—in Non-verbal, Spatial, and Quantitative reasoning. Her Verbal score was 128, likely because she is bilingual and hasn't yet developed a vast English vocabulary through extensive reading (though her combined vocabulary across both languages is substantial). These results clearly point to a significant aptitude for STEM, especially maths and physics.

@swdd

She’d be better off doing Marhs, FM, Physics
and Chemistry. As Marh/FM are not quite two A-levels - and 4 would give her more choices.

But yes - my DD had a relatively easy time in Six Form, certainly compared to the kids doing essay based subjects.

She is at Oxbridge now doing a Masters. The work load has picked up - they have more lectures than Humanities; then there are labs and problem solving tutorials.
She works hard but is enjoying it.

Not necessarily - my DD's highest sub-scale score was 135 if I remember correctly, also in spatial or NVR (can't remember now) so not significantly different, but she's not into STEM and her most strong natural aptitude is for dance, not even music though she was grade 8 on two instruments aged 10 and grade 5 on the third.

It's not as simple at that, and I wouldn't 100% trust CAT4 testing either (I studied neuroscience so know a thing or two about tests).

Dance and instrument skills correlate positively with maths ability. Ability and interest are different, but both are a mix of nature and nurture that can be cultivated.

Again, not necessarily - there are lots of dyslexic people among dancers and dyslexia affects maths learning. Musicality as the natural "feeling" of music is not linked to maths ability. Reading music, counting beats, dealing with finger patterns and "translating" notation into sounds constantly can improve maths (and other) skills - that's not innate though but trained, and in theory trained skills should not be measured by CAT (in practice they interfere that's why I doubt the test is valid).

Anyway, it's another topic and a long and complex one. Your DD shows interest in STEM, that's a stronger indicator than CAT4 as intrinsic motivation is key to everything.

Yes, I don't need a CAT4 score to tell me if my DD has a future in STEM; I’ve gathered plenty of first-hand evidence myself. She has preferred non-fiction since a very young age, solved logic puzzles that baffle even adults, and picked up chess very fast. For me, the CAT4 score simply confirms what I already know. Still, the gap between her Verbal Reasoning (associated with the Humanities) and the other three categories (associated with STEM) is remarkable—placing in the top 5% versus the top 0.5%. Surely, aiming for STEM is a safe bet?

The CAT4 measures developed ability, which isn't necessarily the same as innate ability. Think of a standard maths exam: it tests both the curriculum you’ve learned and your raw mathematical flair. The CAT4 is meant to isolate and measure the latter. Whether this talent is purely down to the 'gene lottery' or shaped by early exposure, music, or chess training doesn't really matter—it is still an ability that can be honed through training. The only time we could call the CAT4 flawed or useless is, for example, if a student's CAT4 quantitative score improved without any actual growth in their underlying mathematical ability.

as intrinsic motivation is key to everything

Probably. But motivation without the underlying ability to back it up rarely leads to success. She has a real passion for drawing and says she wants to be an artist and make a living by selling her paintings. But to be honest, her drawing skill is ordinary at best, so I wouldn't want to over-encourage her in that specific direction. Instead, I’ve suggested she consider publishing a non-fiction book illustrated by herself, or perhaps becoming a game designer—roles where she can channel her interest in drawing and design into a more logic-driven framework.

As Marh/FM are not quite two A-levels

This is not correct - a bit of a mumsnet myth. Maths and Further Maths are 2 full A levels and together with a 3rd - whether physics/chemistry/economics/whatever - will fully satisfy the entrance requirements for any UK university.

Some unis may accept lower grades for a 4th.

Most (not all) UK schools now only allow students to sit 3 A levels - even when that includes Maths and Further Maths. Kings Maths school in London for example which is a highly selective Maths school only offers Maths, FM and Physics in year 13.

That’s not to say that a child with a strong aptitude for maths won’t find the Maths/FM combination less work than a child doing English and History.

Even in the graduate jobs market we are seeing employers only ask for evidence of 3 A levels and that can include Maths and FM as 2 of the 3.

Most (not all) UK schools now only allow students to sit 3 A levels @WW3

You can sit as many A-levels as you want, mostly at external centres of course, just like the girl who famously took 28 A levels!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-68282659

Actually, you don’t need to be enrolled in a Sixth Form to sit your A-levels. You can take them entirely through self-study at home as a private candidate. By doing this, you'd still have an equal chance of getting into Oxbridge, if you are strong enough in all the other requirements.

I was curious about the GCSE English and English Literature results at SPGS and NLCS. They hit nearly 100% Grade 9s, but Godolphin or GDST schools are just around 50% 9s. The gap is too wide to attribute only to selection and teaching quality. With deeper research, I found that SPGS and NLCS use iGCSE with coursework essays, which allows for much more controlled outcomes compared to the 100% exam-based GCSE. Very tricky indeed！

I don't think that can be it. DD didn't do coursework for her English GCSEs. It's one choice that schools can make but they didn't do it at SPGS.

Cambridge iGCSE has optional
coursework. My DC did the exam only curriculum for both English Lit and Lang.
English Language is notorious for its bizarre marking so wouldn’t read too much into it anyway.

You're probably right. Sorry, my info is just from the internet and might be mixed up. But another possibility is that since standard GCSEs are easier than iGCSEs, the threshold for a Grade 9 in standard GCSE is so high that it leaves zero margin for error. And different marking schemes.

Honestly, I don't think there is as much of a difference between GCSE and iGCSE as people seem to think and I don't think either is particularly easier. Sometimes slightly different content is covered. If you look at the specs of the boards involved they seem to cover very similar things. I would imagine the difference in percentages of 9s is largely down to how selective various schools are.

Also, there is no school in the country, whether private or state, that's going to actively choose an exam in which they think their students will get worse outcomes.

State schools cannot choose igcse. Mid-table indies choose GCSE because it is easier and more visible in league table(some league table don't include igcse)

The point is that there is no way Godolphin is choosing to do an exam in which they think their students will find it harder to get the top grade.

Maybe they just prioritize balance over academic perfection and see a 50% Grade 9 rate as a solid outcome？I honestly don't know for sure, but these institutional decisions might be far more nuanced than you thought.

SPGS don’t seem to differentiate between 9s and 8s in their published results so how do you know they get nearly 100% 9s in English?

Actually I can see it’s on the final page!

There are quite a few incorrect assumptions in your post but a discussion on psychometrics is a very technical one, and moreover cannot be done without access to the methodology. GL does not publish its methodology so you cannot actually say "CAT4 measures developed ability" as their underlying concepts and theoretical framework are simply not published in detail.

I wouldn't base any decisions on any tests btw. The fact that you put her score in the title shows you put a lot of weight on this number. You didn't say "my STEM focused DD", you specified her score. Human beings, however, are much more complex creations and cannot be defined by numbers.

GCSE are not easier, my DS did both and said iGCSE just had a slightly different structure.

Both GCSE and iGCSE are relatively easy as PP said.

@WW3
I was more referring to the fact that for a high performing child - Marhs/FM would not be the same workload as two distinct A-levels. There is a lot of overlap. So they can (and should) take another subject that will broaden their Uni options.

Many degrees do count them as 2, and actually require both to be taken, BUT
Medicine, Dentistry, Veterinary Med - DO NOT count them as two (as too similar) - and require Chemistry and/or Biology or Physics

Also - some highly competitive non-mathematical courses at top unis also don’t count them - they’ll state they want 3 A-levels in different subjects.