Should I push my CAT4 138 DD to SPGS open day?

[swdd]

My DD is in Year 5 at an independent school, with a CAT4 score of 138 (same Year 4 and Year 5). She really loves free play, doing her own projects, and is also into chess and video games. She’s more into brain stimulation stuff and I’ve been working with her on advanced competition maths.

However, she’s quite laid-back and not naturally self-motivated. Although she has achieved Grade 8 distinction in piano, she never practises voluntarily. Her English score is good, but not very strong largely because she isn’t an avid reader, and she lacks big interest in humanities subjects.

I don't think she fits the personality of typical St Paul's Girls at 11+. (I guess anything but laidback）Although given her strong logical reasoning skills, she stands a good chance of getting into SPGS if we applied. Also, she’s not at all sporty, and SPGS is extremely strong in humanities – both are definite weak areas for her. Obviously, SPGS is much more expensive than our current school, and as a modest family it would be further financial stretch. That said, we still could sit her for SPGS, partly to test her ability, and I’ve considered 16+ entry to SPGS further down the line, as she can choose a STEM-focused Sixth Form without too worrying about the humanities. And who knows, she might be more motivated in 5 years!

But my DD is completely against it. She’s being rebellious because everyone around her raves about SPGS, and she prefers a more chilled environment, partly influenced by my concerns about the pressure there. She would not even go for the open day.

My question is: should I persuade her to at least go to the SPGS open day, or should I just drop the idea altogether?

@Ubertomusic
you cannot actually say "CAT4 measures developed ability" as their underlying concepts and theoretical framework are simply not published in detail.

I did not make it up. GL says "CAT4 provides a profile of a student's developed abilities across the four batteries to highlight strengths and areas for improvement."

https://support.gl-assessment.co.uk/knowledge-base/assessments/cat4-support/after-the-test/understanding-your-data

I wouldn't base any decisions on any tests btw

Schools do use tests to intervene in learning and select students, so this has already entered the decision-making process. It’s reasonable for me to reference the same data that these schools use.

You didn't say "my STEM focused DD", you specified her score.
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I just find it easier to use a CAT score because it’s objective and lets people skip the 'how bright is she?' part. It’s a clear benchmark that saves a lot of back-and-forth. Since her scores are right up there with girls at SPGS, we already know her general ability isn't the issue here. Good point on the title, though—'STEM-focused' probably fits better, even though I mentioned it in the very first post.

That link is not methodology and does not explain how they define "ability" (there are different concepts around) but you do you.

I reckon CAT4 sits somewhere between a pure IQ test and actual school exams;it's very similar to the 11+ VR and NVR, since they are all designed by GL anyway.

This is very funny.

I’d echo this. I have a daughter at SPGS and a son at Westminster (Great School), and the depth and breadth of the curriculum in STEM (and I would argue in the humanities too to a lesser degree), feel quite different.

That said, I wouldn’t consider either school worth the financial strain if fees are a stretch and you have a place at Tiffin.

@Heath88
Glad to have a Westminster parent here！Moving to a top co-ed in sixth form seems make sense for girls with strong STEM.

Can you comment on "Do you also have sons at Westminster? From what I hear from friends, it's a much more traditional rules-bound atmosphere." （by @BonjourCrisette a SPGS parent）

Rule-bound atmosphere but with greater breadth and depth of the curriculum? You could be both right though.

Westminster is going fully coed and this year girls applying at 11+ so maybe would suit your STEM focus DD.

Yes I have booked the open day for Westminster. But I thought at 11+ they take only 20ish girls and mostly siblings of the boys there. Quite an uncomfortable minority for the girls. Sixth form is more like a true co-ed with most intake being girls. I really like Kings College School at wimbledon which is local to us but only takes girls at 16+.

20ish girls this year 2026, but more next year. There are no siblings policy so boys coming from Westminster Under have to sit 11+ and apply to other schools in case they don’t get offer at Senior. So friends with boys there are now applying to other schools and sitting their 11+.
It would be tougher to get girls into sixth form if there are already girls cohort in that year since less space available.

Historically, girls made up about 1/3 of the 200-student Sixth Form intake. Even if the new 11+ and 13+ entries take 30+ spots, if the school is really aiming for a 50/50 co-ed split, surely the 16+ girls' intake won't drop that much? It's hard to know the direction in 5 years for sure, though. I agree the new 11+ route is a brilliant opportunity to secure a place early and get an all-through great education, provided that £££ isn't an issue.

Personally - if your girl likes STEM - (non-medical) - i’d seriously consider Westminster.
Tiffin is skewed by the medical track, so it’ll be more biology, chemistry, and less maths focused.

And the main benefit of what Westminster does is in the Y7-11 - extending, going deeper and broader, etc.
If you only switch in Six Form - those years are gone and kids have just 1year to focus kn the A-levels/building up UCAS profile, etc.
The kids who’ve been at WUS would have had years of better teaching that your DD would have missed, and it cant be replicated.

A STEM focused girl would be absolutely fine with boys at WUS from 11+.

That makes a lot of sense. Just want to add that I guess Tiffin’s leaning towards medicine is down to the demographics and parental push, not directly from the school. It’s a state school at the end of the day—they stick to the National Curriculum and that’s it. I am not expecting the teaching quality and resources on par with the top-tier indies. IMHO a grammar like Tiffin gives DC a very solid academic floor across the board, but it doesn't provide a ceiling. A place like Westminster might offer the ceiling, though there’s no guarantee DC will actually reach it.

I haven’t read the full thread, but I’m not clear what is meant by a “rule-bound atmosphere”. In our experience, Westminster, much like SPGS, is rooted in a liberal educational ethos, and their approach to learning feels quite the opposite to rules? (Other than Westminsters wearing uniforms)

My view on the greater depth and breadth comes from seeing both schools from the inside — the content covered, how the pupils are made to go beyond the curriculum, the enrichment and the number of times our daughter has asked her younger brother things like, “Why are you learning that in this subject?”, “Why is your school making you do(learn) that?” or “We never had to do that in Year X.” If you ask her, she would say his school goes off-piste from the curriculum all the time and does “weird” things. I suspect they arrive at similar outcomes, but by quite different routes.

My husband did GCSE maths in Year 9, GCSE statistics and further maths in Year 10, A-Level maths in Year 12 and FM, Physics and Economics in Year 13.
There's lots of chat on the Gifted and Talented board about taking maths early and how some Universities don't like a gap for undergraduate. Obviously continuing mathematical study through another form of maths is an option.

You'd think with all that intelligence he would open a dishwasher. But no.

I also have two DC who test at 140 but they have much more autonomy over their own work life balance.

@JustMarriedBecca

Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'autonomy'？Does that mean staying up as late as they like, or staying home if they don't feel like school? Do you let them make all the big calls, like playing games or watching TV all day? Do your DC truly self-teach and practice their instruments entirely on their own?

Yes, I know many truly gifted kids can be quite autonomous, but I’d say my DD is bright without being "gifted" in that sense. Fortunately, both her parents work from home, so we have the luxury of time to be with her and provide that necessary nudge to guide her along.

What gave you the impression that her work-life balance is off? Why else do you think I describe her as laid-back? It is precisely because we place so much importance on balance. She is a free spirit because we have always guided her life in a playful way.

My meticulous planning has no negative impact on her at all. For instance, does she know I guide her toward chess for better maths, better academics, and better thinking skills and resilience for her future achievements? Not at all. To her, it is simply fun!

In our experience, Westminster, much like SPGS, is rooted in a liberal educational ethos, and their approach to learning feels quite the opposite to rules?

This is good to hear and I guess it just shows that we should not repeat secondhand information since what I've heard is very different! I do apologise if I have passed on something that isn't right.

The questions about 'why are you doing/learning that' are interesting since DD had similar comments from boys at SPS.

They don't self teach but they are entirely self motivated but for different reasons. I never have to remind them to practice their interests.

My eldest just wants to learn - she is motivated by knowledge and curiosity. My youngest is 100% driven by competitive spirit.

In terms of autonomy, no - they don't stay up all hours and no, they don't choose whether to go to school - they are still parented. But they do have a framework of rules e.g. they can try a new hobby but if they commit to it beyond a few weeks, they commit to a term. That teaches resilience and commitment. But then, if they do want to stop at the end of a term, that's OK (both played chess at a regional / national level, one wanted to quit to concentrate on music, other continues to play).

You don't sound like you give your DD any choice. Her whole future seems mapped out. And if she's any kind of sensible, she will know why you want her to play chess etc. My DD, similar age to yours, would be strong willed enough to push back and say "that's not what I want".

What will you do if/when your DD turns round and says she doesn't want to play chess and/or doesn't want to go to Oxbridge. Something from your comments tells me your daughter wouldn't dare ever let you down like that. She needs to live her own life and make sensible choices, not the ones you select for her.

Personally, I would just send her to grammar school as then there is no financial pressure and as much freedom to develop as she sees fit. A lot of gifted kids can either lose their giftedness when the hormones come in or want to explore sideways in their own way when teens. Eg make their own dresses etc and video games and compose songs/play the guitar. Private school often comes with pressure to not just be academic but also excel at all sorts and at a school like St Paul’s everyone will be doing that. I would want her to retain her creativity and individuality above all else and would minimise the all round expectations.

So I would not take her round fancy private schools who know how to market and have far better facilities etc because of of course, most children will then want to go there.

At eg Tiffin or HBS or wherever you live there will be some other girls just like her as well, obviously not all of them, but plenty to have a strong peer group and build lifelong friendships.

I hope this is the last time I clarify this, just to avoid misunderstanding. And I don’t want to argue about who’s a better parent — we get enough of that on MN.

The truth is, I let DD try lots of board games and sports when she was little. She was keen at first, but her interest always faded quickly, so I dropped most of them. It was the same with chess at first; I even took her out of the school chess club. I signed her up again last year because the new teacher is good, and her interest just grew and grew, especially after the national schools chess competition. Now she gets up every day asking to play and learn chess, so I just go with it. I spend time each day looking for materials and tactics to help her, but if she loses interest one day and moves on, I will never force her.

I get that some people are really busy with work, or just not into chess, so they don’t help their kids much with it. Some kids are also more independent and competitive by nature. I never comment on other people’s choices, and honestly it’s none of my business. But don’t misjudge me or think there’s something wrong with her or with me. I did introduce her to chess because I know it’s good for maths and future STEM subjects. But I really don’t believe she’ll hate me for that. She already knows chess helps maths, and good maths helps chess — there’s nothing wrong with that.

As for Oxbridge, if she grows up happy and capable, it really doesn’t matter if she doesn’t go to Oxbridge, any top university, or even university at all. I dare say what I value most are her thinking skills, social skills and general well-being — not some fancy title or halo. Having said that, I do think a good university would help her, so I keep that in mind when making school decisions.

The schools we’re talking about, like SPGS, aren’t even my first or second choice — they might be third or fourth. I’m only discussing them to get a fuller picture. In no way will I force her down this road. I’m just looking at one possible path. I’m sure most of you don’t just let your child pick schools at 11+ randomly with no planning. The only difference is I like to look further ahead — to 16+, university and her future career, not just a few years. If you think that forward-thinking planning makes me a bad parent, so be it. But unless you have actual useful info on these schools, I’d rather you didn’t comment.

I’m not here to tell anyone what a good parent should be. Every child and family is different. I came for proper discussion and info, and thankfully I’ve learned a lot from this thread about SPGS, Westminster and other useful stuff.

As a parent whose child has been at a private primary school for nearly six years, I don’t really enjoy conversing with many other private school families. Their conversations always centre around — surprise, surprise — holiday destinations, and they seem to have no interest in any of my future visions or aspirations. Meanwhile, I find I have much more in-depth conversations on forums with parents whose children attend grammar schools or are aiming for grammar schools, and we share similar values.

I think a lot of gifted kids are more polymath so focus on one thing intensively for a while, then move on to the next thing. It’s not something that can be controlled or commercialised. A lot of them then have no natural staying power in the work place either and really need to work on that once they are mature. However, as kids I would let them explore as many things as they want. Regarding chess, DS1 did it competitively for a while but then got bored and we were relieved as it was too much sitting around all day for the adults during competitions.

In the long run, as adults, making proper money is about staying power and social skills primarily beyond a certain level of intellect. But not as children. If you want them to learn as broadly as possible, I would just do what they want for a few months at a time. DS1 had a greenhouse breeding exotic plants at one point and applying genetics, taught himself Japanese - he went through so many different things over the years until he got to some level of mastery and moved on. The ones I discouraged included his old coin obsession. Weirdly he did find some rare coins in general circulation which we sold on eBay for a hefty price. He found them at a school fair- we were wondering why he was moving from stall to stall helping out counting coins, school just thought it was because maths was his thing.

DS1 had a greenhouse breeding exotic plants at one point and applying genetics, taught himself Japanese - he went through so many different things over the years until he got to some level of mastery and moved on.

It’s quite similar to our situation. DD also teaches herself Japanese on Duolingo and checks in every day. I have no idea why she is learning it — we have absolutely no connection to Japan whatsoever. I just let her learn at her own pace without interfering. She kept it up consistently for over 300 days before dropping it and moving on to other interests. She loves to explore on her own, writes her own illustrated books, creates her own drama scripts, composes her own music, raises her own ladybugs…

Regarding chess, DS1 did it competitively for a while but then got bored and we were relieved as it was too much sitting around all day for the adults during competitions.

I intentionally don’t let her focus too much on competitions. To me, it’s more about deepening her thinking and a good mental workout. I don’t make her learn many chess openings or play too many tournaments just for medals or to boost her ECF ratings; instead, we do thinking exercises and puzzle solving. She also loves to explore all kinds of chess variations, like Chess960, Crazyhouse, and so on. I help her see how chess connects with maths and logical thinking, and I don’t encourage her to memorize fixed patterns but prefer her to think from first principles. We do join some rapid chess competitions now, but I won’t have her play any long games.

If their conversations with you always centre around holidays, this means they keep you at a very long distance for some reason.

These threads are always eye opening to me. My kids were playing with Barbies at age 9 and i certainly wasn’t worried about a levels. She sounds amazingly bright.
Can I clarify, your daughter got distinction at grade 8 piano - distinction? You mentioned it in a kind of off hand way but that is incredible at that age. And particularly on the piano with child sized hands. What is she doing with her music now, are you pursuing that further? What does her music teacher say?