Should I push my CAT4 138 DD to SPGS open day?

[swdd]

My DD is in Year 5 at an independent school, with a CAT4 score of 138 (same Year 4 and Year 5). She really loves free play, doing her own projects, and is also into chess and video games. She’s more into brain stimulation stuff and I’ve been working with her on advanced competition maths.

However, she’s quite laid-back and not naturally self-motivated. Although she has achieved Grade 8 distinction in piano, she never practises voluntarily. Her English score is good, but not very strong largely because she isn’t an avid reader, and she lacks big interest in humanities subjects.

I don't think she fits the personality of typical St Paul's Girls at 11+. (I guess anything but laidback）Although given her strong logical reasoning skills, she stands a good chance of getting into SPGS if we applied. Also, she’s not at all sporty, and SPGS is extremely strong in humanities – both are definite weak areas for her. Obviously, SPGS is much more expensive than our current school, and as a modest family it would be further financial stretch. That said, we still could sit her for SPGS, partly to test her ability, and I’ve considered 16+ entry to SPGS further down the line, as she can choose a STEM-focused Sixth Form without too worrying about the humanities. And who knows, she might be more motivated in 5 years!

But my DD is completely against it. She’s being rebellious because everyone around her raves about SPGS, and she prefers a more chilled environment, partly influenced by my concerns about the pressure there. She would not even go for the open day.

My question is: should I persuade her to at least go to the SPGS open day, or should I just drop the idea altogether?

I don't speculate as we have friends at SPGS but OK.

I don't understand what you mean by "far from common sense" 🤷‍♀️

Why have you started a whole thread about a school your child is definitely not going to?

I am completely calm. You probably won't get to understand the levels of negativity since your daughter won't be going there.

For example, the answer to the first question. Your answer is :Probably. The other SPGS mum's answer is:No. My speculative answer is: maybe. So, there seems no common sense answers here.

I think she found the boys just shouted a lot! @BonjourCrisette

DD went from a girls school to co-ed and it was a shock 😂

Because I like SPGS.

"Common sense" has a slightly different meaning, you probably meant common knowledge and universally accepted facts then. OK.

Just because your DD preferred the more creative pursuits - does not mean that having academic challenges and competitions with - say the boys school - would not interest other girls, or would not be a good idea.
Avoiding boys shouting - is not really a reason not to expose both boys and girls to joint events where they can interact in an academic setting, while developing important skills. Afterall - they would need to learn to work alongside each other one day.
And of course I am not suggesting compulsory participation....

What I mean by UK being not used to maths or sciences competitions - is as I said. UK does not do much - there are only few available. UKMT is the only country wide challenge that middle school kids can do. Most schools don't teach or practice that sort of creative fun maths in any event. Hence - UK teams never do well in the international competitions.
Same goes for other sciences, programming, robotics. Non-existent in middle school, limited in upper school.

Maybe SPGS used to steer girls to STEM. It does not now, and it teaches it OK, but not in any sort of inspired way, unless you are lucky to get a few better teachers.

And don't even get me started on the trainwreck that is the "new" Computer Science and Creative Technology school directed courses. The disorganisation and lack of leadership in that Dept is appalling. Yet another missed opportunity, IMHO.

But again - it is still a good school that delivers results. And the other options for the girls in area are no better.

@BonjourCrisette @swdd

My daughter is currently at a private primary school and will be moving to City Junior next year. The reason for private primary is not just about better education, prep but also the environment, peer group, facilities, resources, and specialised teachers-even for creative subjects like DT, art, PE, drama, LAMDA, as well as trips, competitions, languages, extracurricular activities, fixtures, awards, and so much more.

If you can afford a good private school, it’s worth every single penny!

Go and see spgs if you feel like it.

I pity your dc though - sounds like you’ve sucked the fun out of piano (she never wants to practice voluntarily? At grade 8? What a crying shame! At grade 8 I adored my instrument, I lived for my ensemble groups and the Proms with my dad each year. I can’t imagine getting to that level of expertise in an instrument without having an all-consuming passion for making music. What an absolute shame.)

And now you’re already stitching up ideas for y12 and y13?

You’re raising a human being. Did it occur to you that age 16 your dc will know exactly what she wants to do without your six years of planning?

My dc15 knows exactly what she wants! And that is me NOT interfering. My job is to facilitate her becoming a great adult. Not turning her into some little project.

Just calm down, your dc is telling you clearly what they want - listen .

Agree wholeheartedly.

I also have two DC who test at 140 but they have much more autonomy over their own work life balance.
They do chess / music / county sport but it's very much directed by them.
I can't imagine their responses if I tried to map out their life like this

Also, both are state school.

What I mean by UK being not used to maths or sciences competitions - is as I said. UK does not do much - there are only few available. UKMT is the only country wide challenge that middle school kids can do. Most schools don't teach or practice that sort of creative fun maths in any event. Hence - UK teams never do well in the international competitions.
Same goes for other sciences, programming, robotics. Non-existent in middle school, limited in upper school.

If this is your definition of ‘challenge’ and ‘greater depth’ then I can see why you would like more of it. When I say it, I mean lessons that go off on interesting tangents (like the creative maths you mention), reading week homework that points to non-syllabus but fascinating podcasts, teachers spending their time to speak to school societies on their areas of interest and (crucially) attending the talks the girls give and really engaging, the opportunity to set up a team or take part in a competition if the girls want to do so enough to be the driving force.

I don’t value external competitions much at all, and I haven’t seen any value (for the girls) from the joint stuff with the boys school. But that’s just me, and its why this thread is valuable. If you want a more traditional approach, a bit more directed, a bit more competitive, then SPGS probably isn’t the right place. In the same way as it’s not the right place if you want your child to be chivvied into doing every piece of homework well through demerits or other sanctions - the school is much more likely to let a girl feel the consequences of not doing it, and learn from that.

I pity your dc though - sounds like you’ve sucked the fun out of piano (she never wants to practice voluntarily? At grade 8? What a crying shame! At grade 8 I adored my instrument, I lived for my ensemble groups and the Proms with my dad each year. I can’t imagine getting to that level of expertise in an instrument without having an all-consuming passion for making music. What an absolute shame.) @NobodysChildNow

My DD is truly the happiest, freest child I have ever seen. Frankly, I think you are oversimplifying the situation and using your own adult biases to make some very flawed assumptions about children. She absolutely loves the piano; she adores composing her own music, playing her own pieces, and she sings spontaneously every single day. However, she will not voluntarily practice anything—whether it’s piano, reading, or math challenges. She loves school, yet she still won’t voluntarily get out of bed to go there. We’ve always raised her with a very relaxed approach, which is precisely why she lives the closest to the school gates yet is the one who is constantly late!

If you 'pity' my child for her 'involuntary' piano practice, shouldn't you also pity her for having to go to school every day? While many young adults—and a rare few children—might be entirely self-motivated, most require a nudge. Otherwise, what is the point of being a parent? I even tested the 'total autonomy' theory once: I asked her to write her own schedule for the day, and she allocated more than half the time to playing Roblox video games, with the remainder filled with random doodling, lego, eating and watching youtube and outdoor games. Can you truly imagine letting a child live a purely 'voluntary' life every day?

In family we immerse her in music; we talk about piano constantly and take her to numerous world-class performances (we are seeing Argerich in a few days). We did try a professional piano trial lesson once when she was tiny, but she literally jumped off the stool mid-way through, so we decided not to push it then. In fact, we haven't spent a penny on professional lessons; we’ve taught her entirely ourselves. We never originally intended for her to do exams, but we eventually realized that having a small, tangible goal would be beneficial for a child as laid-back as she is. We meticulously select pieces for each grade that are within her reach and that she actually enjoys. With an hour of practice a day, Grade 8 really isn't that daunting. Your idea of an 'all-consuming passion' as the only valid reason to play simply doesn't apply here. You are typifying the mistake of projecting your own limited life experiences onto others—which is, sadly, all too common on MN.

Having said that, I can appreciate your concerns, which is why we are constantly monitoring her to ensure she doesn’t burn out. Our ultimate goal is for her to enjoy the piano at a high level for her entire life, much like her mother does, while also using the instrument as a tool to help her develop a sense of self-discipline. There is no one-size-fits-all answer here; it requires parents—acting as both music teachers and educators—to constantly navigate and explore what works for their specific child.

And now you’re already stitching up ideas for y12 and y13?
You’re raising a human being. Did it occur to you that age 16 your dc will know exactly what she wants to do without your six years of planning?
@NobodysChildNow

Honestly, you are confusing strategic planning with coercive execution. They aren't the same thing at all.

Think about it: every single aspect of school is planned. Do you really believe that because a school follows a curriculum and sets targets, the children are being treated 'inhumanely'? Of course not. School is project-based, it has objectives, and it requires a roadmap. Did you not plan your own child’s school enrollment, or was that just done on a total whim?

I am discussing long-term considerations for when my daughter is 15-16. How on earth is that 'damaging' her now? She isn't even aware of these discussions! Once again, you’re oversimplifying a very complex reality. My current decisions are based entirely on my deep understanding of her personality and where I see her going. By the time she’s 15, the plan can—and almost certainly will—evolve, and her own voice will carry much more weight. But you can’t just wait until the last minute to make a snap decision with absolutely no foundation to stand on.

Parents who proactively create opportunities for their children are rare; most just 'outsource' it all to the school and hope for the best. It’s unfair to criticise parents who think deeply about their child's future—actually, I think that kind of dedication should be encouraged！

I completely agree that private primaries offer a much richer experience. If you have a bright child, being in a selective environment with clever peers is a huge plus. However, I’m not convinced it’s worth 'every penny.'（DD is at an enviable, selective all-through school) If I had to put a price on it, I’d say a third to a half of the current fees would be much more reasonable!

@swdd I think every child benefits differently from the opportunities a private school offers-our daughter is an all-rounder, and she has developed a lot in every area so totally worth it for us!

I know, I know. It’s like our DDs had the similar experience, but our feedback as consumers is slightly different. I’ve always been a bit hard to please when it comes to schools! But I also think state primary deserve credit—they have the extracurriculars and the heart to help any child become an all-rounder. Living in the 'real world' rather than a 'private bubble' isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just that I didn't want to run that risk at such a young age.

Re. music - composing at this age is more unusual than grade 8 piano, especially for girls, or at least I haven't seen many young girls composing at JD, even though they have a compulsory composition lesson.

It does sound like your DD is into maths and tech (composition is linked to maths ability). Perhaps specialist maths 6th forms would be a better fit?

JD is probably not the best place for someone who never practises voluntarily. There are children at JDs who are forced to practise by their parents but it usually doesn't last very long when they get older. It has to come from within.

I actually agree on the point of planning. I don't see why we plan our own lives, including pregnancies and the number of children - then somehow are expected to drop all planning for our children and just do everything last minute 😁

I wish my parents had planned more for me. It was no fault of theirs, of course; they just didn't have my resources or my perspective. But I do.

Teenagers can overturn plans easily anyway 😂 I changed even my own plans last minute when I was a teenager, this is life, but I still try to plan nevertheless. It helped enormously when the government hit us with the VAT.

I also feel that a full-blown JD program might be too 'hardcore' and rigid, but my daughter needs a structured environment to sustain her momentum. I’ve been looking into CYM (Centre for Young Musicians) and it mimics the JD framework and seems more accessible—perhaps too elementary for her level?
She is a prolific creator who thrives on building things. Beyond music, she is constantly immersed in projects—just yesterday she completed an illustrated book she wrote and designed herself, and she spends hours on handicrafts and coding numerous Scratch projects. She is, perhaps, too much of a free spirit.

The VAT on school fees is the most bizarre policy I've ever seen. But on top of that, fees themselves have consistently been rising faster than inflation. I used to think SPGS was super expensive, but suddenly I've realized that the current fees at our senior school have already surpassed what SPGS used to charge back when we first started primary school.

I think you are a fairly new parent at SPGS, and have only seen a bit of it. And - possibly have only been exposed to one educational system.

However, and it is not a controversial - UK system of education does not really inspire girls to take up/excel in most of STEM subjects, with the exception of biology and medicine.

Competitions, extensions, societies, clubs, specialised schools - are all different ways used by countries that do a better job in encouraging girls to believe that they can do STEM just as well as boys.

The reality of SPGS is that in the middle years - from Y7-Y11 - there is very little extension/going out of syllable, inspiration in any of the STEM subjects. Most of the clubs that exist in the school for the junior/middle school are creative, drama, etc. - all more traditional feminine pursuits. Teachers in creative subjects, and some humanities at SPGS are really involved and really good.

But not the same for STEM - there is no robotics club, no programming, no little engineers, etc. The automotive club started and never got of the ground properly, and was always under-resourced compared to the boys school.

Sure - here and there a teacher would tell them a little more above the program as they go along, but it's not the same as nurturing their interest and helping them develop it.

Yes - in the upper school girls do societies - and those interested in STEM lead them, largely so that they can put them on their UCAS statements. So - they do talks, etc. And they get into competitive programs at Oxbridge, Imperial, etc. But it's less because of SPGS, and more despite, IMHO....

I think it's probably fairly similar in most girls schools in the UK. So - if you have a STEM focused girl - it's up to the parents to help them nurture it.

I think it's probably fairly similar in most girls schools in the UK. So - if you have a STEM focused girl - it's up to the parents to help them nurture it.

This validates my theory. I’ll be taking a very hands-on, semi-homeschooling approach to her STEM studies. All I require from a school is a solid foundation and a selective peer circle to keep her driven. The ideal scenario? A good-quality school that is easily affordable—or even better, free!

This is a very weird thread. Your child is in year 5 and you’re already thinking about uni destinations. What the?!?! Give the girl room to breathe. You’re not chiselling a lump of wood. You’re nurturing a living thing that will go their own way.