High-achieving ds feels teachers have turned against him in Y13

[stripycats]

This is a bit of a weird one and I'm not sure how best to handle it. DS is a high achieving very driven student in an average comp. He's head boy, only one to get all 9s at GCSE, is predicted 3 A stars, got that in his mocks and has an Oxbridge offer. I'm not bragging but obviously this is relevant to the post. He absolutely loves school and his teachers and parents' evenings are always glowing - as much in terms of his attitude as his achievements. He is always being praised for his contributions to discussions (does hums/arts subjects) and his questions as well as the way he asks for and responds to feedback. It has never so much as been hinted at that he is arrogant and I really don't think he is. He has a wide range of friends and helps out at revision sessions for younger pupils, open evenings etc.

Lately he has been commenting that in one subject he is being marked down by teachers and disagreed with in class, he feels, for the sake of it. To give an example, essays are marked out of 25 and he has scored between 22-25 throughout the course, usually only dropping a mark or two for the last year. However, now he is getting 21 or 22 most of the time and it's knocking his confidence. As the final exams approach it seems he is getting slightly worse which is worrying him. This is the subject he is doing for a degree as well. He also feels the teachers are disagreeing with him a lot in class and feels like he is being 'put in his place' so to speak, and he finds it hurtful, especially for it to start quite suddenly at this point.

I am trying to put it in perspective for him and saying they just expect so much from him and want to be sure they have done everything they can to help him meet his offer (he doesn't actually need A stars, but he'll feel a failure if he doesn't get them, especially in this subject) and that could be why they seem 'picky'. The discussion-based stuff could just be a perception, which I have said to him. I realise this probably sounds ridiculous but it's getting to him and it's not nice to see. He has loved school but puts so much pressure on himself and now he's not sure what's going on. What, if anything, should I do?

When did he get / accept the Oxbridge offer and does this coincide?

For what it’s worth I also went to Oxbridge from state school and although I’m sure my parents were worried about me not being top dog I absolutely loved it. I didn’t need to be top of the top and I really enjoyed the opportunities to read and learn and I got involved with massive amounts of extra curricular stuff. I remember it as one of the best times of my life.

I can’t tell from what you say whether the teacher is trying to challenge him or bring him down a notch. In any event, it’s not long to go now and he will likely have outgrown the school anyway.
We are at the other end of the spectrum with ours where loads of them are focused on Oxbridge and all are expected to read around their subjects and even if they are excellent and Oxbridge bound, they are made to feel distinctly average in their grammar school. Not really sure what is better. My feeling has always been that no matter how academic and high achieving you are, never let it define you or your self worth. Just be a kind and keen learner and carry on.

FWIW, the grade boundaries in History are often high 70s for A star. If you average over 20/25 you’re hitting it! You don’t need 25.

It’s often the case that teachers mark a little lighter to start with in ye12. Now it’s the end and they are marking to standard and looking for a final push in improvement. No-one is at their peak yet. These next weeks are vital for all to improve …and there needs to space for somewhere to go with essay subjects in particular as judgements and support become more sophisticated.

It’s a shame this feels annoying to him ….and you Op. It’s so unlikely to be an attempt to bring him down or discourage him. And it’s a shame he’s taken it like this. The mark differences are so marginal and still A star marks.

I suppose my question is whether he’s whales with teachers and working with them - it’s a stage where he should be able to chat with them, ask for clarification, be willing to listen to feedback and seek to improve further. Has he got this mindset? Or is he feeling a bit like a victim and seeing them as the enemy at the moment? It doesn’t help.

At this stage, there’s not time for loads more feedback before study leave begins. It’s about squeezing what you can from teachers and teachers helping students to make leaps forward. It’s not static.

I hope he’s able to express how he feels and engage honestly so he can get the most out of these last weeks. I’m sure if he tries to explain how he feels, they will understand and try to help.

It’s a stressful time. Students can be very sensitive or over sensitive. They need encouragement but also honesty about where their work stands in terms of marks, because there’s still time to improve, even for v strong students. And they all need to expect that’s needed rather than they are already there.

I am a teacher who has had many students go on to Oxbridge. No student has ever made me ‘insecure’ - whatever they may achieve in the future, they aren’t at my level of expertise yet.

OP, I think it likely that it is more about encouraging other students, than discouraging yours. I try to be positive with students and that may seem like ‘gushing’ but, at this late stage in the course, I am trying to build up the least secure students.

I am not a fan of the ‘Eh?’ or ‘Not really’ marking but I can see that some teachers use this to prompt the student to go back, reread and work out what might be wrong with that response. Is DS doing that? The intellectual challenge may help him more than the teacher being prescriptive with their feedback. If that still isn’t clear, DS should ask for guidance.

Trust me, at this point in year 13, no teacher wants to sabotage their students. Maybe they feel he is a shoo-in and are directing attention elsewhere, maybe he has just outgrown the school ( this is common) and it’s all a bit grating.

I would be happy for you to email me, say he is feeling a bit discouraged about his recent marks and ask for feedback. I am sure this can be sorted and I wish him well.

I totally understand that feeling you describe but the ones who will thrive at Oxbridge will pull it out of the bag. They have a killer instinct when it comes to exams. The ones who don’t make the cut to get to Oxbridge are being saved from a terrible fate. If you can’t take an exam and absolutely BOSS it for three hours and produce future exemplar answers for the exam board to release to teachers, then Oxbridge is not the place for you after all. The Oxbridge kids take the stress and turn it into fuel.

Op, reading your posts, I wonder if your DS is strong in picking up social cues, or not quite so strong in that?

Is it the case he looks at the mark and is v influenced by that - sees it as the crucial thing, when actually at this stage, the feedback and next steps are most important. That these are there to help the last push of progress that’s needed? Is he viewing this as criticism rather than constructive help? I don’t know, but it’s a possibility.

At this stage, Ixbridge candidates (and schools or colleges) can feel under pressure. I don’t know what his subject or offer is. If it’s History at Oxford it’s AAA and usually A*AA as much of the selection process has already happened and they don’t want those chosen to be excluded by a slight drop in grades. But if it’s sciences etc there could well be a couple of A stars in the offer and also other requirements like STEP. The pressure builds.
Somerimes schools or colleges think a student might not make the grades. They use this time to help boost them. Sometimes they feel pretty confident but they still want them to do their best and achieve beyond the offer - if it’s AAA for example.

What can be seen as encouragement and boosting can be viewed by some students as criticism or worse. And by parents too. What some parents want is just positives at this stage. It is a fine line and parents and kinds and teachers don’t always agree about exactly how to close to the line in either side is useful…and it might not be the same for all kids.

Which is why communication is so important. Great if you’re emailing them about it in a constructive way. But he really ought to be raising and discussing this stuff too with the teachers given his age and desire to engage with study and this kind of necessary conversation at uni. Is this a hard conversation for him? Is there some help you can give to help him have it in a positive way ? ——skills which will be so useful in the tutorial system where he will have to have the conversation and confront things, as mum won’t be able to send an email.

This. Preparation for Oxford/ the wider world where he will need to cope with challenge, “unfairness”, being wrong and others being better than him.

Which is why communication is so important. Great if you’re emailing them about it in a constructive way. But he really ought to be raising and discussing this stuff too with the teachers given his age and desire to engage with study and this kind of necessary conversation at uni.

In fact, they ought to be raising it with him like mature adults instead of making cryptic comments.

Strange post. There’s a lot of mythologising about Oxbridge - it’s just a bunch of relatively bright students who work hard, get pissed, and mostly get 2.1s which they may have got at a red brick.

If only the teacher had spent as much time formulating precise feedback as Mumsnet has spent ruminating over his behaviour, it all might be less frustrating.

In my opinion, the best approach would be for DS to ask the teacher for clarification and to be honest and humble about his worry that marks are slipping.

I'm not one for conspiracies but I can actually imagine parents whispering in the teacher's ear that a star pupil is getting all the glory and the teacher should be more even-handed. Only in a primary school environment though.

Both of my children found the second year of A levels harder than year 1 and their grades did go down slightly.

It could just be this.... the work has got harder so his grades have dropped, it's nothing to do with teachers turning against him.

He will be starting his exams in a couple of months so the teachers opinion will not matter to how most of those are marked.

OP I’m sorry some people are criticising your son. Y13 is a challenging year and history is a particularly tricky subject. I’m sure he’s not at all arrogant. Teachers can be tricky and do sometimes develop favourites or otherwise, though of course they shouldn’t. Maybe he said a couple of things that ruffled their feathers or they took the wrong way. They are used to less gifted pupils so perhaps they felt undermined. Teachers are only human and can be as weird as anyone else at times. And of course they have discussed it. Anyway that’s totally on them and nothing he should worry about.

Remind your son he’s doing brilliantly, he’s still the same smart kid he ever was. He should focus on the work and keep his head down in class or just make a determination not to be bothered by any of their comments. Don’t let him stress about the A vs A star. He’s doing the subject he loves. The A star and Oxbridge are not the be all and end all. I’m sure his second choice is an excellent RG uni as well. Also essay subjects at Oxbridge are very high pressure and it’s possible to have a less than great time there or a better time elsewhere.

If it helps, my DC has a friend who was a similar high achiever - straight 9s, predicted A stars, head boy. He got an A in history, missed out on Ox, went to Durham instead, had an amazing time, did a blue chip internship and has just landed a great job. Does not feel he missed out one bit. What will be will be.

But are the comments cryptic and not understandable? It’s probably what’s been used regularly through marking. There’s a limit to how much can be written in margins and students can always seek clarification.

The issue here seems to be that DC is feeling like he’s been targeted or not treated well. It is possible. But it’s unlikely. As previous poster said, teachers don’t try to sabotage their Oxbridge candidates but help them grow both in terms of their exam work but also approach to discussion, wider engagement with feedback and getting ready for a different level of study and different style of teaching. Some students embrace all that. Others find it hard. Possibly some ND students need things spelled out more explicitly and the purposes of the feedback etc, but staff would know that at this stage if ND is diagnosed or suspected desire diagnosis and essentially being catered for.

So in the end, it is about communication. Teachers in a college might be going feedback to many many yr13 students at this point in yr13. Individuals who need further clarification should seek it. Individuals should know the weeks are limited and they must seize the opportunities to squeeze the most from teachers - as they will need to do at Oxbridge. And believe the teachers want and will help them. But sometimes you have to ask for more if you need more than was given.

As for the person mentioning the PTA - most high schools don't have PTAs, do they?

They’re either giving him some tough love to prepare him for Oxford… or they’re feeling inadequate and jealous and kidding themselves they’re preparing him for Oxford.

I don‘t know about this. My nephew at Cambridge has discussed his recent experiences openly with me and it seems to me that the tutorial system and general approach is designed to ensure that he is challenged and supported to reach his full academic potential. It actually didn’t sound too different to my experience at a non Oxbridge but still very highly regarded institution thirty years ago.

This stands in contrast to my disappointment at my children’s experience at different well rated Russell Group universities more recently. I was astonished at the lack of time or input from academic staff, and the seeming absence of any attempt to challenge and encourage the reaching of full intellectual potential.

His grades have fallen so he needs to know if he’s performing less well or they’ve changed the marking - which should be consistent. “Not quite” as a comment is vague. The onus is on the teachers to communicate clearly with the students.

You don’t start preparing students for Oxbridge 6 weeks before their A levels start - the preparation should run the course of the 2 years.

What cryptic comments?

I was never any good at history but even I can work out that ..

"Eh?" clearly means "I don't understand your argument; it needs to be clearer"

"Not quite" means "You've had a good stab at explaining this but I don't think you've quite got there - you need to rework your explanation"

Both are encouraging the student to go back and look at what they've written and to see where it could be improved. If they still can't work out what they need to do then they go and have a conversation about it.

Yes, the teacher could have written my longer comments out in full; but would that have really been preferable? We have at least one teacher on here saying she frequently makes comments like that and her students interpret them perfectly fine.

Eh? is me. I don't think the OP's DS's teachers are writing that. I confessed to 'not quite' and 'eh?' which I indeed use for the exact reasons you state!

I was talking about the students, you’re talking about the tutorial system.

My point was there not some kind of Einstein elite - but normal people most of whom come out with 2.1s.

I don’t disagree that redbricks can be disappointing academically.

You don’t “explain” things in history A level. You analyse the question, formulate a concise argument with supporting evidence.

I read History at Oxford - it is a tough course - a lot of information to assimilate and then formulate your arguments and then be able to re-marshall all that information to rebut whatever your tutor sends to you from the left field and or take their point and incorporate it into your own line of argument. Sometimes a tutor prefers the essay your partner has written - sometimes they may feel that you have missed the obvious and that that omission undermines your narrative. (Sometimes its just purely subjective - my best mate managed to score a borderline first/ 2:1 from one examiner and a borderline 2:2/third from the other examiner on the same paper in her History finals....)

His teachers may well be combining a bit of preparation for this with a need to encourage some of the less confident members of the class.

History exams are also a specific skill set - ideally you are not answering a question that is new to you - you want to be able to expend most of your energy reproducing essays that you have already written in non exam conditions and got really good marks for. DS' teachers may well now be comparing him not with his classmates but with the bright Oxbridge offer holders around the country and be pushing him to make sure that his answers contain everything possible to hit the mark scheme so that under pressure on the day he will be able to recall all the salient points and get them down in a clearly argued, clearly signposted manner within the time limits. Actually, for someone who writes fluently signposting can be a very difficutl thing to get right as it can sound a bit clunky/obvious on the page which might be what the question mark commentary is actually about.

I agree with PPs who say that he should simply ask his teachers to explain what he can do to get his written marks up, focus on that and make sure he isn't dominating class discussions.

Who mentioned impatience? And even if there is some perceived body language going on, which again seems to have been entirely invented, but just say to there is, why should that impact his marks, or the language used within the marking?

It all comes to approaching the teachers with a desire to understand what he can do to keep improving and to understand anything he isn’t sure about or n current marking.

In the end that’s all that matters and will make a difference. None of us know exactly how DC behaves in class, how specific teachers mark or they have always used exactly the same criteria and full A Level standards or not. We don’t know if they are looking to boost him as he’s at risk of not getting grades, or looking to prepare him for Oxbridge….or none of the above, but just marked the work they saw in front of them, along with possibly over 100 essays on the same topic, given it’s a 6th Form college.

We don’t know.

But DC can find out…and move forward. That’s what counts now.