High-achieving ds feels teachers have turned against him in Y13

[stripycats]

This is a bit of a weird one and I'm not sure how best to handle it. DS is a high achieving very driven student in an average comp. He's head boy, only one to get all 9s at GCSE, is predicted 3 A stars, got that in his mocks and has an Oxbridge offer. I'm not bragging but obviously this is relevant to the post. He absolutely loves school and his teachers and parents' evenings are always glowing - as much in terms of his attitude as his achievements. He is always being praised for his contributions to discussions (does hums/arts subjects) and his questions as well as the way he asks for and responds to feedback. It has never so much as been hinted at that he is arrogant and I really don't think he is. He has a wide range of friends and helps out at revision sessions for younger pupils, open evenings etc.

Lately he has been commenting that in one subject he is being marked down by teachers and disagreed with in class, he feels, for the sake of it. To give an example, essays are marked out of 25 and he has scored between 22-25 throughout the course, usually only dropping a mark or two for the last year. However, now he is getting 21 or 22 most of the time and it's knocking his confidence. As the final exams approach it seems he is getting slightly worse which is worrying him. This is the subject he is doing for a degree as well. He also feels the teachers are disagreeing with him a lot in class and feels like he is being 'put in his place' so to speak, and he finds it hurtful, especially for it to start quite suddenly at this point.

I am trying to put it in perspective for him and saying they just expect so much from him and want to be sure they have done everything they can to help him meet his offer (he doesn't actually need A stars, but he'll feel a failure if he doesn't get them, especially in this subject) and that could be why they seem 'picky'. The discussion-based stuff could just be a perception, which I have said to him. I realise this probably sounds ridiculous but it's getting to him and it's not nice to see. He has loved school but puts so much pressure on himself and now he's not sure what's going on. What, if anything, should I do?

I also agree with this, at university teaching level, I encourage the weaker students to speak up, for everyone to participate, and I praise those who are involved and the quality of their ideas is then left for others to judge. I do not discourage participation ever, as half the battle is getting students engaged, especially girls and women who are often not used to speaking up and are talked over by their male counterparts. Turn-taking and respectful listening is important, as is accepting a 'challenge' from another person, even if you think they or their ideas are a bit daft.

At this level he needs to stop thinking of his teacher as evaluating his performance and start thinking of it as a human conversation.

I totally agree with this. And actually, some of the students who, in the end, performed best in my cohort were the ones who during their degrees were prepared to venture risky arguments which they often got slain for. You don't have to be perfect all the way through to do brilliantly - and in fact, staying too close to shelter often doesn't help you develop the skills to perform at the highest level.

An awful lot of people confuse being impressive with being likeable, but they are not even close to being the same thing as you progress through life (although a lot of adults still think they are). A lot of young children try to make friends by showing off, they rank themselves a bit as they can't articulate other characteristics like "I feel happy around them," "they make me feel better about myself," "they are kind." Even adults think that you should automatically be higher socially if you have an impressive job/figure/house etc.

It sounds as if he might dominate a little bit and maybe knocks the discussion dead for the other, intimidated students. It's unlikely he does a good job of pretending they are making good points and that he has listened to them if he sees it as gushing praise for an obvious point.

It might be easier for your DS to understand in a different context - say sports. Occasionally you will get a coach who thrives on the one special, talented kid who wins and progresses really quickly. However, a lot of coaches will prefer teaching the happy, enthusiastic nice kids, the ones nice to their teammates who give the impression they really want to be there. Can he see the strength in that kind of lesson, can he put himself in the teachers shoes?

Impatience, eyerolling & being annoyed when others who have diffrrent views is arrogant - there's no way it isn't!
Perhaps being blinkered, and lacking self reflecting on what is happening that may be causing such issues, is a family trait!

That would be fine if we actually know he is eye-rolling, but we don't! Another poster mentioned eye-rolling, not me, and you picked it up and ran with it. I have every reason to believe he isn't doing it as it would be so unlike him. He has expressed impatience to me about things others have said but not in class. I have only ever had positive comments about the way he behaves in discussions and cooperates with others, including at the parents' evening after the mocks less than 6 weeks ago.

@Restlessdreams1994 I am pretty sure I have not described him as 'the golden boy,' - why on earth would I do that? Again, someone else has said that, presumably sarcastically, and you've jumped on it.

Anyway, there are lots of useful comments here for me to think about and I am a bit worried about how he will cope with the transition to Oxbridge so this might be a useful learning curve for him.

Sorry I don't understand what you're saying.

Some teachers are 'masters of learning' if they're very passionate and experienced? I don't get your point.

Perhaps if you repackage it as a good opportunity for learning to cope with an Oxbridge style he might feel less offended by it?

I do think he sounds as though he needs to toughen up and dial down the sense of being affronted by what he feels is a lack of esteem, as no-one will pander to him there. Actually, even dons can be really quite rude when it comes to academic discussion! If someone thinks your argument falls short, no-one is taking any prisoners.
ETA think Mumsnet but with an IQ screening before taking part! 😂

OP, don't worry about him at Oxbridge. Concentrate and encourage him right now and reassure him that for whatever reason this teacher is being a bit difficult- but it might be worth listening. He will find his own way. I've found that trying to advise my children never goes very well, but listening and allowing them to learn, whilst completely having their back, lets them figure it out for themselves. He's done pretty well to date and there's no reason to think this is beyond a natural edginess as the exams approach.

Is this impatience with those stating the obvious new? He may just be outgrowing school and not appreciate that he is light years ahead of where some other students need to be just to pass, and that the teacher is not there for his sole benefit. I've had similar conversations about stating the obvious with my Y10 DS who gets frustrated with not being able to charge ahead with challenging ideas in some subjects, yet needs to be reminded that he needs to tick all the boxes on the mark scheme because while his teachers may know he knows it, the examiners don't.

The vague feedback sounds frustrating for him. While I agree he needs to build resilience and critically examine his own work, can he approach teachers once he's made a stab at it and ask why they've put those comment to help him do better next time?

He’s bright but sounds like he needs to build up a lot of resilience and quickly (and you also) or he is really going to struggle mentally at oxbridge

Actually, op, by writing off some of the comments on here you are probably demonstrating why your son is struggling with the setting.
Personally I haven't seen a useless point being made in this thread. Everything is salient. But you've been a bit dismissive and said ah well, at least some of you get it.

My feeling is your son's achievements need to be strategised in a classroom setting by his teachers. Whilst he sees them as "gushing" over others, there can easily have been several of them seeing teachers "gushing" over him for the whole of the course. The teachers see all of the responses. You only see your son's.

You are resistant emotionally to some of this thread, exactly as your son is resistant emotionally to some things in class.

But that's already been said several times, here.

‘not quite’ is just poor teaching. There’s no mystical benefit to OP’s son to trying to guess what his teacher had in mind. The teacher should make the effort to express themselves more clearly. I know some Oxbridge dons do give ‘feedback’ like this, so to that extent I suppose it’s useful preparation for what he may encounter, but it’s not for any high-minded reason. They’re just spending minimal time on teaching so they can give more time to their own research.

I don't know where you got the idea 'A' levels are more difficult than degrees? I suppose some degrees maybe. But most Oxbridge students will have got 3 A stars, and are still nearly floored by the amount of reading and essays they are expected to do EVERY WEEK.

Just to say I’ve taught Y13 in what you would consider “social sciences” ie essay based subjects, and the second half of the year it is normal to push your very top students to challenge and stretch them so they’re both ready for the exam (where more in depth analysis is required) and for university, where there is far more independence and less guidance from tutors.

Hopefully he has his confidence restored soon, and is able to have a good open conversation about it with his tutors. It must be really hard to watch him struggle with this - it’s such a highly stressful time for young people AND their parents. I wish you all the best with supporting him - from my experience not all parents are as thoughtful and invested as you.

I agree.

At this point good teachers should be highlighting issues and troubleshooting to help him optimise his performance for A levels and beyond.

I write 'not quite', 'not sure about this', 'hmmm', and 'really?' ALL the time on marking! I have been know to write 'eh??' It's for the (especially a bright) student to go away and think about how they have expressed themselves or what isn't quite grasping or articulating the point. Marking is a dialogue. This is better than the teachers who only ever annotate and mark in exam spec language which is no use to anyone!

On a point of order , it was never the OP who said 'golden boy' or 'eye rolling'. There is an awful lot of creative thinking going on. OP : never ever say really positive things about your own child on MN . It gets the sharks circling.

And just to add - for my most able I would share full mark answer exemplars or re-write answers to make them full mark.

This type of feedback is the most useful (and perhaps they have done this!) but I’d be asking for this to help him understand why and where he is dropping marks.

The thing that would concern me is less the debate and attitude of teachers and more the dropping marks.
Marking should be consistent and if he is dropping marks then either his work is not as good as it was or the marking is different. He needs to know which it is so that he can work on it.

Exactly. There seems to be a lack of transparent feedback on what is happening.

He needs to know if his performance has dropped or factor in tighter marking.

‘Marking is a dialogue’ isn’t an excuse for vague sloppy comments. You’re not a troll standing on a bridge, and the point of teaching isn’t for the student to guess your riddles three so that they can pass. Good feedback means encapsulating quickly and concisely what the issue is in a way that no only allows the student to learn in that individual instance but to grasp a principle more broadly so they can apply it in future. It is simply a massive waste of time, not only the student’s time but your own time, to mark an essay by writing comments like ‘eh???’ If you are going to do that you might as well give up on the idea of external teaching altogether, and just tell the students that you expect them to teach themselves. If that is your expectation fine, but in that case give up your salary as well.

It sounds the opposite though, that he’s losing confidence? Rather than ‘simply refuses to believe he’s not perfect’ or ‘spitting his dummy’?

That all sounds quite derogatory, was that your intention?

Goodness knows how I have managed thirty years of teaching and the some of the best results in the school (and nationally as it goes) then.

Thanks for your wise advice. I shall take it on board (I was tempted just to answer 'eh?' but that would have been silly.)

@stripycats even if there's no eyerolling, do you/he think the neither the trachers not his classmates not pick up on his impatience?

A trait that is often so difficult to supress aa an adult, not to mention a child. Body language, facial expressions and non verbal clues will gave him away.

It's the fact that both you/he can't even contemplate that he's part of the problrm, that makes me certain he is.

It's a matter of weeks now. I would expect they've covered all the material. Maybe they're trying to focus on the borderline students since they're already confident he's going to get the grades. To be honest, the time for discussion and debate is done now. It's the time for students who feel they lack confidence in aspects of the syllabus or who perhaps have gaps to check that they have all the material they need, and for tweaking of exam technique. He might also be, however unwittingly, intimidating other students who are doing well but he is almost certainly working beyond A-Level standard by now, and that can make others feel bad when they're doing just fine.

I would just tell him to keep his head down and focus on revision. It sounds like he's ready for the next challenge.