SNP stance on pensions

[Mountaingoat12]

The SNP - in all of its past independence propositions - have been wildly optimistic, but with their latest stance on pensions they have moved to actually gaslighting their supporters. I just cannot comprehend it.

In 2014 the independence white paper stated that after independence, Indy Scotland would pay Scottish pensions. They seem to now be saying that following independence the rest of the UK (I.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland) will be responsible for paying Scottish pensions, which is just not at all true. Never has been, never will be. I find it just unfathomable. Trying to actually gaslight the electorate???

They've been gaslighting for quite a while about lots of things. Some can't see it, some are happy to ignore 'cos you know, "freeedommmm"

Oh and the vast majority have never set an eye on the white paper anyway, they just quote what they see on twitter as gospel.

Usually the ‘facts’ they state could be true. Oil could be $120 a barrel. The UK could let Scotland use the £ (detrimental for Scotland to do so but hey, the other currency options are also disastrous). But saying rUK will pay Scottish pensions is so blatantly untrue, it must make even the most hard of thinking nationalist wonder why they are now making stuff up. Have they totally run out of even slightly feasible options?

Independence has never been costed. It is to my absolute horror that the compliant media up here never challenges the SNP on it. Nearly 6 years on from the referendum we have not heard what currency we would use. Shouting it’s our pound too doesn’t mean that we have access to a lender of last resort. Nor do we know how separation would be paid for, what would fill the gap when the many public service jobs that service the whole of the UK are moved elsewhere or indeed how we would bridge the deficit to get back in the EU. However, raising any of these is met with cries of talking Scotland down. It would be economic suicide for generations.

@ElephantOfRisk

They've been gaslighting for quite a while about lots of things. Some can't see it, some are happy to ignore 'cos you know, "freeedommmm"

Yeah this.

Lots of the faithful will take everything Sturgeon and Blackford says as gospel. No questioning at all.

Worrying, isn't it?

Independence has never been costed

Details, details. Bigger picture, freedom from Boris and Westmonster, wave the saltires and issue official documents in "Scots".

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/8343001/snp-ministers-indyref-scottish-independence/

They are currently spending £700k a year on 11 people's salaries working on plans for their next referendum.

I now wonder if the nationalists actually realise what the word independence means - being dependent on rest of UK for state pensions can’t be part of it. And why, when according to them, Scotland with all our natural resources would be super rich after independence, and practically have England over a barrel according to some, would we even need to rely on England, Wales and NI for our state pensions? Same with using the pound sterling, we would have no say in how the Scottish economy is affected. Hardly independent.

@ElephantOfRisk

They've been gaslighting for quite a while about lots of things. Some can't see it, some are happy to ignore 'cos you know, "freeedommmm"

This.

If we were allowed independence then what would you propose happened to my years and years of national insurance contributions? Should I just cut my losses? I haven't read widely on this but from what I have read it seemed to suggest that those currently in receipt of a pension should continue to be so because they've paid for it. The suggestion isn't that we should be subsidised in any way but that any moneys owed to us should still be owed. That seems sensible.

Oh and now you can expect a banal topic to pop up on Scotsnet ‘where can I buy a new hoover?’ Or another ‘so excited, moving to Scotland, where to live?’
They always pop up when anyone starts discussing a ScotGov fail.

There isnt a big pension pot, contributions pay for current pensions. I can't imagine that rUK would be happy that they are paying for Scottish pensions. That's u likely to be a vote winner. Also, is this supposed to be permanent situation, or for one generation?

@OnceUponAWhine

Oh and now you can expect a banal topic to pop up on Scotsnet ‘where can I buy a new hoover?’ Or another ‘so excited, moving to Scotland, where to live?’ They always pop up when anyone starts discussing a ScotGov fail.

I think that most posters on Scotnset will cope with multitasking between threads tbh! In fact it might present itself as a good opportunity to shoehorn in some extra criticisms!

It's so ludicrous that I can't believe anyone actually expects that it's a realistic prospect that rUK taxpayers would pay Scottish pensions post Indy.

What are they playing at?

@alicesfavouritepen

If we were allowed independence then what would you propose happened to my years and years of national insurance contributions? Should I just cut my losses? I haven't read widely on this but from what I have read it seemed to suggest that those currently in receipt of a pension should continue to be so because they've paid for it. The suggestion isn't that we should be subsidised in any way but that any moneys owed to us should still be owed. That seems sensible.

Because that's not how pensions work. Current pensions are paid out of current taxation.

How would it be fair for iindy Scot to take the tax away from the UK system that currently lays those pensions but not take the pension liability.

What they are proposing is that Scotland's current contribution Iwould be paid by ruk taxpayers and Scotland pays 0. It's not fair or realistic in any way shape or form and the rUK would not agree to it and neither they should.

Hmmm yes I do see your point but also given that there is a qualifying period of NI payments and so I can see also that there should be some period of transition where the UK would pay for a certain number of people.

That may not be how they choose to operate pensions (as a pot) but they have nevertheless benefited from years and years of our NI payments so I could see why we might try to get some recompense.

@alicesfavouritepen

Hmmm yes I do see your point but also given that there is a qualifying period of NI payments and so I can see also that there should be some period of transition where the UK would pay for a certain number of people.

That may not be how they choose to operate pensions (as a pot) but they have nevertheless benefited from years and years of our NI payments so I could see why we might try to get some recompense.

Recompense? Why? How? For what?That just doesn't make any sense. What do you think you're losing out on that you should be compensated for?

You had the same benefits that all other ruk NI payers had from your NI contributions. You have built up an entitlement to a pension and that liability should move with the Scottish taxpayer base and become the responsibility of Scotland.

You should technically be in no worse position than you are now and neither should the ruk taxpayers.

This new SNP policy that the liability would remain with rUK and Scottish taxpayers pay nothing when they currently pay their share is just utter batshit.

They're taking Scottish voters for fools, they think they're so financially illiterate they won't be able to think It through. Yay free pensions for Scottish people.

That may not be how they choose to operate pensions (as a pot) but they have nevertheless benefited from years and years of our NI payments so I could see why we might try to get some recompense.

But that's not how it works. Where do you think the money came from to pay the first pensions? It wasn't money that had been saved up or contributed by those being paid a pension. It was and is paid for by the current contributions of national insurance. If Scotland doesn't have enough take in of National Insurance to pay out the pensions it needs to pay then they will need to raise more money which means increased contributions from the citizens in the country. But then were we not all promised a better pension under independence?

I did some crappy wee diagrams for my mum to explain why it would not be fair and there's no way the rUK would agree to it.

Obviously this is overly simplified as the real relative proportions would not correspond exactly between taxpayers and pensioners.

First is current position, Scottish taxpayers pay a population proportion and Scottish pensioners receive a population proportion.

Old SNP policy is that both taxpayer proportion and pensioner proportion move to Indy Scotland. Fair, realistic and sensible. Everyone in an unchanged position.

New SNP policy is unfair as rUK taxpayer proportions increased and Scot taxpayers pay nothing while Scot pensioners in same position.

Why in any negotiations would the rUK government agree to that?! It's not fair and political suicide.

@Rainbowshit that's actually a good wee diagram. Very helpful. You have to wonder why they would suggest such ideas if they are so easily disproved. It doesn't do those who are actually wanting independence any favours at all!

[quote alicesfavouritepen]@Rainbowshit that's actually a good wee diagram. Very helpful. You have to wonder why they would suggest such ideas if they are so easily disproved. It doesn't do those who are actually wanting independence any favours at all! [/quote]
I can't imagine they're doing their credibility any favours with soft no voters. Can't really understand why they've come out with this policy now. Unless it's just sheer desperation that they've decided to go full Trump/Boris.

No definitely not good for their credibility sadly. Seems a strange move and I'll be watching with interest to see what is said of it in the coming days!