SNP stance on pensions

[Mountaingoat12]

The SNP - in all of its past independence propositions - have been wildly optimistic, but with their latest stance on pensions they have moved to actually gaslighting their supporters. I just cannot comprehend it.

In 2014 the independence white paper stated that after independence, Indy Scotland would pay Scottish pensions. They seem to now be saying that following independence the rest of the UK (I.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland) will be responsible for paying Scottish pensions, which is just not at all true. Never has been, never will be. I find it just unfathomable. Trying to actually gaslight the electorate???

@StarryEyeSurprise That figure you use for the Pensions - is it including the post Indy increase you also mention? If not, what would the figure be thanks

But what Boris is doing is irrelevant to this. This is about the Scottish Government.

Why are people bringing up Boris and voting Tory on a thread about pensions in an independent Scotland? All that's really relevant here is how much it would cost for Scotland to take over that provision, including any increases that have been promised, and how those costs would realistically be met. What level of taxation would be needed to meet this cost, as well as all the other freebies that have been promised. A realistic plan to build the economy and set up all of the relevant institutions (not least currency and central bank), including the level of financial hit (expecting anything else is unrealistic) would be nice too. (Incidentally, I see Sturgeon has now climbed down and admitted it would be the responsibility of the SG. Maybe someone sat her down and explained it to her with flow charts).

@LizzieMacQueen

Ok. Selfish question : Do you think it possible in any future independent Scottish country that the state pension might be means tested?

No.

If we match the current rUK pension, it is the lowest in Europe. This is a political choice, not through necessity ( as the UK is MS).

Re doubling the pension so we are in line with the European average - this would cost another £7.5bn. Not an issue if an indy Scotland is MS, hence the need for our own SC.

However, pumping new money into the economy without there being the productive capacity to meet the additional demand could cause inflation and/or a rise in imports. Hence, it all needs to link together.

Again, taxes don’t fund government spending when it issues its own currency. The state pension in an independent Scotland can be set at whatever level the productive economy can support in terms of the real goods and services those pensioners can purchase. The money itself is never going to be an issue. The question of the working population vs the retired population is not one of tax, it’s about the capacity to provide the real goods and services. Otherwise, again, we hit issues with inflation.

StarryEyeSurprise, as I said upthread, the UK has withdrawn from several reciprocal payment arrangements over the years. If an independent Scotland is going to pay higher pensions than the rest of the UK, I'm not sure that any Scots who have paid NI in Scotland but are resident in England, Wales or NI will receive an enhanced state pension.

Also, tbh, if I was inventing an independent Scotland, I probably wouldn't have NI - it would be an opportunity to roll contributions into general taxation and get rid of the costs of processing NI as a separate tax.

Your figures upthread show a shortfall even at this early stage.

@Crowdfundingforcake

StarryEyeSurprise, as I said upthread, the UK has withdrawn from several reciprocal payment arrangements over the years. If an independent Scotland is going to pay higher pensions than the rest of the UK, I'm not sure that any Scots who have paid NI in Scotland but are resident in England, Wales or NI will receive an enhanced state pension.

Also, tbh, if I was inventing an independent Scotland, I probably wouldn't have NI - it would be an opportunity to roll contributions into general taxation and get rid of the costs of processing NI as a separate tax.

Your figures upthread show a shortfall even at this early stage.

I agree re NI, I simply used the current figures which go into NI , however in an MS market, there's no direct correlation between NI and pensions as such. It's simply a ticket to show one's worked x amount of years.

"If we match the current rUK pension, it is the lowest in Europe. This is a political choice, not through necessity ( as the UK is MS).

Re doubling the pension so we are in line with the European average - this would cost another £7.5bn. Not an issue if an indy Scotland is MS, hence the need for our own SC."

Really have to get on with some work, but could we please stop spreading this myth that UK pensions are half the European average @StarryEyeSurprise. The figures this is based on are purely from state pensions only, which make up a larger proportion of pension income in Europe than in the UK. Workers in the UK usually also pay into workplace pensions and if you consider pension income as a whole the difference is much smaller, only a few percentage points. I'm not saying that UK pensions are near the top of the list by any means, but it does no-one any favours to use misleading information to make a political point.

Uk pensions are sitting at the EU average now according to the latest OECD report. This report took into consideration that workplace pensions exist alongside state pensions in this country, whereas in many eu countries companies pay the money that would go into workplace pensions into state pensions instead.

On day 1 an independent Scotland would face a £15bn hole in its budget due to the loss of the Barnet formula. Trying to replace this cash is a monumental task. You would have to double income tax. Just to keep up with current spending levels. Is an independent Scotland going to have a higher pension than rUK under these circumstances? What you you think???? Of course not!

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

"If we match the current rUK pension, it is the lowest in Europe. This is a political choice, not through necessity ( as the UK is MS).

Re doubling the pension so we are in line with the European average - this would cost another £7.5bn. Not an issue if an indy Scotland is MS, hence the need for our own SC."

Really have to get on with some work, but could we please stop spreading this myth that UK pensions are half the European average @StarryEyeSurprise. The figures this is based on are purely from state pensions only, which make up a larger proportion of pension income in Europe than in the UK. Workers in the UK usually also pay into workplace pensions and if you consider pension income as a whole the difference is much smaller, only a few percentage points. I'm not saying that UK pensions are near the top of the list by any means, but it does no-one any favours to use misleading information to make a political point.

State pension are the lowest in Europe and even when private pensions are added in, UK pensions re still less than the OECD and European average (your article states so).

I'm quite sure everyone on this thread knows there are state and private pensions.. does anyone not??

State pensions are only higher in other countries because private pension funds are used to buy you more state pension, so there are no private pensions. If the UK used a similar system our state pensions would be far far higher

"I'm quite sure everyone on this thread knows there are state and private pensions.. does anyone not??" @StarryEyeSurprise I'm sure most people do know the difference. I'm not at all sure most people realise that your assertions that pensions were half the European average doesn't include private pensions which is why I felt the need to clarify this. The impression given is that on retirement, a UK pensioner is half as well off as European one and that is simply not the case for most people.

The full thread has related to state pensions in an independent Scotland .

I think the point is Starry that other European state pensions include essentially a mandatory private element so to compare like with like then you need to add in UK private pension provision. Otherwise it's misleading.

Also funny how GERS is now accurate.🤔

Be back later to comment further after work.

The state gives me 25p for every pound I pay into my private pension. If this is not the case in other European countries then I think it's a bit disingenious to claim that ours is the lowest.

I never realised that other EU countries don't have a private pension element.

Thanks for that information all clear as mud!

EU countries do have private pension elements.

Some do, some don’t. Comparing state pensions across the EU is like comparing apples and pears. Totally irrelevant. We should be looking at pensioners income and expenses and seeing whether pensioners need more money. Many with a final salary defined benefit pension are much better off than those working, with mortgage payments and childcare costs.

I think the main point is that pensions would be pitiful as there would be no money

I think if the SNP are trying to make out that the UK will be on the hook for pensions, they have realised they can no longer dress up Indy as anything other than the economic meltdown it is. It’s interesting.

@StarryEyeSurprise, Ian Blackford on Scotland’s Choice Podcast, 14 December 2021, episode 33 stated, “commitment to continue to pay pensions rests with the UK government. “ He goes on to state that Scottish Government will start paying the pensions for those who have paid into NI after independence, ie, not the current pensioners.

On 28 January, same podcast, Kate Forbes, “wouldn’t dare disagree with Ian Blackford on pensions.”

This is in direct contrast to the position in the Pensions in an Independent Scotland paper published in 2013, foreword given by Nicola Sturgeon, which stated, “responsibility for the payment will transfer to the Scottish Government.”

Now it appears that Ian Blackford appears to be backtracking on the comments made me n December but again begs the question on why the position changed from the clearly stated position in 2013 to this muddying of the waters. Why not stick to the 2013 position surely Ian Blackford being the expert here should be very clear on this point?

Blackford is only an expert in filling his face and bullying people like the late Charles Kennedy who Blackford and his ilk bullied for years. Blackford is a vile self serving bawbag windbag clown.

I still don't get where the magic money tree is to pay for all these wonderful independence plans......not without substantially increasing taxes and not to mention Scotlands current workforce is not sufficient as it is for income tax.......

If they can tell me where to find such money tree I would be all ears!

@Rainbowshit

I did some crappy wee diagrams for my mum to explain why it would not be fair and there's no way the rUK would agree to it.

Obviously this is overly simplified as the real relative proportions would not correspond exactly between taxpayers and pensioners.

First is current position, Scottish taxpayers pay a population proportion and Scottish pensioners receive a population proportion.

Old SNP policy is that both taxpayer proportion and pensioner proportion move to Indy Scotland. Fair, realistic and sensible. Everyone in an unchanged position.

New SNP policy is unfair as rUK taxpayer proportions increased and Scot taxpayers pay nothing while Scot pensioners in same position.

Why in any negotiations would the rUK government agree to that?! It's not fair and political suicide.

So pensioners in UK, Wales and NI would get a third of the total of their contributions, so about 33?
And Scottish pensioners would receive 8? Currently we all get 25 so all but Scottish pensioners would get a theoretical increase. Very interesting but SNP won't accept this at all.

What, Ian Blackford isn’t an expert on this but our Finance Minister said he was and whilst being a humble crofter as well!

Shocked by Rhiannon’s comment, shocked to the core!