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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

SNP stance on pensions

307 replies

Mountaingoat12 · 05/02/2022 20:15

The SNP - in all of its past independence propositions - have been wildly optimistic, but with their latest stance on pensions they have moved to actually gaslighting their supporters. I just cannot comprehend it.

In 2014 the independence white paper stated that after independence, Indy Scotland would pay Scottish pensions. They seem to now be saying that following independence the rest of the UK (I.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland) will be responsible for paying Scottish pensions, which is just not at all true. Never has been, never will be. I find it just unfathomable. Trying to actually gaslight the electorate???

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StarryEyeSurprise · 10/02/2022 20:12

@Lockdownbear

OK some of the debt is to BoE, some of it to other institutions. But bottom line, England are not going to let Scotland walk away without paying back.

We can't think we can borrow shed loads of cash and not pay back. Yeah well have a big furlough party, milk BoE dry, then run like fuck.

Not going to happen!

As mentioned above, this isn’t a debt in the ‘household’ way. There isn’t a sum to ‘pay back’. The UK national debt is the amount of Sterling spent into existence by the Government that they haven’t received back in taxes. It is the Sterling in our bank accounts and wallets. Much of the debt is in the form of gilts owned by UK and foreign companies and pension funds.

That debt will never be fully paid off ( there's no need to nor economic benefit) and the UK can always create any new money required ( for example , 99.5 per cent of the funding to cover covid associated costs (2020-2021) has been matched by printing £ at the BoE).

StarryEyeSurprise · 10/02/2022 20:23

Also, I've just looked at Blackford's understanding on pensions ( from his twitter) -

"Individuals pay national insurance and as a result build entitlement to a state pension. Today’s national insurance contributions meet current pension payments. There are requirements out of national insurance such as two months cash flow held within the national insurance fund.

"The UK Govt actuaries publish reports on the expected trajectory of national insurance receipts and expenditure. Any shortfall in liabilities can and must be met with additional funding."

Crowdfundingforcake · 10/02/2022 20:28

Additional funding from who? An independent Scotland? I don't think the UK Govt will be printing extra money to pay Scottish pensions for the next fifty years.

StarryEyeSurprise · 10/02/2022 20:35

@Crowdfundingforcake

Additional funding from who? An independent Scotland? I don't think the UK Govt will be printing extra money to pay Scottish pensions for the next fifty years.
Yes, obviously they wouldn't.
Rhannion · 10/02/2022 20:39

It’s a case of “ none so blind “ up here.
I had a brief “ conversation “ with a SNP supporter who dismisses any criticism as “ unionist “ or “Alba “ shit. From women’s rights to pensions everything will be sort after independence she said.

Rhannion · 10/02/2022 20:43

As an aside did you see that the Scottish government want to nationalize the railways and create “women only “ carriages. Not much point to that if any man can self ID...

WouldBeGood · 10/02/2022 22:06

@Rhannion yes, everything sorted after independence is always the answer 🤷🏻‍♀️

Frankly I think they’d do well to get enough railway carriages for everyone

Lockdownbear · 10/02/2022 22:50

@Rhannion

As an aside did you see that the Scottish government want to nationalize the railways and create “women only “ carriages. Not much point to that if any man can self ID...
Your having a laugh- really they want women only carriages- so the dodgy men know where to find the lone women. How to set your self up as a target.
Rhannion · 11/02/2022 00:01

Seriously that’s what they are thinking about doing. They also had a plan to cut of the top of doors in schools due to Covid, without having asked the fire service about it.
When asked about that Sturgeon said “ it was an issue for the individual councils to check with the fire service. You couldn’t make it up!
I’m embarrassed by my country at times.

Lockdownbear · 11/02/2022 00:35

Don't start me on the doors.
Fire laws began in 1666, after a wee fire, 350 years of death, destruction, fire investigations, fatal accident enquiries, and campaigns to get us to the Regs we have now. Our stupid leaders want to rip it all up. People lived through plague, & flu pandemics and no vaccines in the last 350 years yet they want covid to rule ARRR!

Lockdownbear · 11/02/2022 00:36

I'm glad I can rant here!

Lockdownbear · 11/02/2022 00:40

Chill.
Thinking of the women only carriages to make things equal, as equality, swings both ways you also need men only carriages.
So on the wee Highland trains with 2 carriages- where are couples, a sexuals, non binary, and oddballs ment to go?

Lockdownbear · 11/02/2022 00:46

@Rhannion have you come across the Railing threads on Scotsnet? I think you might find some like minded individuals

Monopolyiscrap · 11/02/2022 00:49

@Catsolitude

Independence has never been costed. It is to my absolute horror that the compliant media up here never challenges the SNP on it. Nearly 6 years on from the referendum we have not heard what currency we would use. Shouting it’s our pound too doesn’t mean that we have access to a lender of last resort. Nor do we know how separation would be paid for, what would fill the gap when the many public service jobs that service the whole of the UK are moved elsewhere or indeed how we would bridge the deficit to get back in the EU. However, raising any of these is met with cries of talking Scotland down. It would be economic suicide for generations.
Scottish pounds are different from English pounds legally. So no reason Scotland could not keep using them. But really what currency to use is not an important issue. What matters is what is tied to.
alicesfavouritepen · 11/02/2022 07:42

@Lockdownbear

Don't start me on the doors. Fire laws began in 1666, after a wee fire, 350 years of death, destruction, fire investigations, fatal accident enquiries, and campaigns to get us to the Regs we have now. Our stupid leaders want to rip it all up. People lived through plague, & flu pandemics and no vaccines in the last 350 years yet they want covid to rule ARRR!
Are they actually going ahead with the fire door thing? My understanding was that it was a silly idea that was quickly quashed? The human race might have made it through plagues etc but many millions died due to lack of appropriate medical care and vaccines.
WouldBeGood · 11/02/2022 07:44

Of course currency is important! Mortgages and pensions could end up being in a foreign currency, for example. And I don’t think that would work in our favour, with our new currency!

Selkiesarereal · 11/02/2022 08:00

So I like to think of the pensions akin to my current account, either I have enough money in to meet my expenses or I don’t.

If I don’t, then I either have to cut back in my expenses which also cover lots of other things, like health, schools, etc., or I need more money coming in.

So the question is whether Scotland right now has enough money coming in to cover current pension costs along with all the other outgoings.

And given the latest shenanigans over who is to pay for the pensions, it doesn’t sound like we do as otherwise why change the position from indyref 1 - perhaps they have looked at the predicted oil prices made then and realised that those prices never happened, oil is now the bad guy and we have a big stinking black hole?

Lockdownbear · 11/02/2022 09:17

@alicesfavouritepen, no they have kicked the doors suggestion to the councils. Who with any sense will do nothing. Can you imagine the risk assessment fire vs covid in kids who are all vaccined.

But it's the fact it was openly suggested. Surely someone said what about Fire before it got that far. Covid is not the only killer and it was in the same week as the OTT domestic fire laws that are unlikely to do very much.

Tomorrowisanewday · 11/02/2022 09:31

I work in construction, and the comment that NS made that it was up to the individual local authorities to clear this with the fire service was nonsense - we have one, country wide, set of Building Regulations - they don't change depending on whether you're in Highlands or Glasgow City!!

Lockdownbear · 11/02/2022 09:39

@Tomorrowisanewday
Yip, can you imagine kids getting killed in a fire because someone cut a fire door.
Can you imagine the person who ordered that door to be cut trying to defend their actions in court?
Because NS said so. If she asked you to jump of a cliff would you do it?
It just makes my blood boil at the pish they come out with.

StarryEyeSurprise · 11/02/2022 10:16

@Selkiesarereal

So I like to think of the pensions akin to my current account, either I have enough money in to meet my expenses or I don’t.

If I don’t, then I either have to cut back in my expenses which also cover lots of other things, like health, schools, etc., or I need more money coming in.

So the question is whether Scotland right now has enough money coming in to cover current pension costs along with all the other outgoings.

And given the latest shenanigans over who is to pay for the pensions, it doesn’t sound like we do as otherwise why change the position from indyref 1 - perhaps they have looked at the predicted oil prices made then and realised that those prices never happened, oil is now the bad guy and we have a big stinking black hole?

They haven't changed their position. They've not said there's a 'pot' or that pension would be paid by rUK post indy. Simply, there will be a transition period.

The law of the Continuing State (Vienna Conventions 1978 etc) is clear that rUK gets the assets (embassies, gold, Falklands, etc) and the liabilities (UN fees, IMF fees, pensions, National Debt, etc), while Scotland gets what is physically located in Scotland or its territorial waters. rUK would be entitled to remove items from Scotland such as military vehicles and aircraft, paintings in military bases, etc where they can be shown to belong to rUK). For the avoidance of doubt the territorial waters are defined by the UN Law on the Sea, and not by any line drawn by Tony Blair!

Can Scotland afford the State Pension? The answer is Yes and we can use the GERS date to show that. Table 1.1 in GERS 2021 puts National Insurance collected in Scotland at £11,476 million, which is 8% of the UK total. NI is more regressive than Income Tax as Scottish income tax is only 6.6% of UK total. The State Pension (in Box 3.2) is given as £8,517 million. So it covers the State Pension in Scotland with £2,959 left to go towards other welfare payments. Universal Credit is put at £3,170 so our NI receipts essentially cover both the State Pension and Universal Credit.
Housing Benefit (£1380m) does not come out of the NI Fund. HMRC Child and Tax Credits (£1864m) also not from the NI Fund.

That being said, remember the NI fund is really a ticket system to show eligibility for a state pension. MS countries do not need a 'pot' of funding available.

The position in regards to the present UK State Pension is really no different to other National Insurance entitlements such as Unemployment Benefit (I know it doesn't really exist, but Scotland certainly needs to get back to a proper scheme - it was never means tested and it was no questions asked for 6 months so long as you had two years NI payments).

Scotland will take over all those in work entitlements and in just the same way it will take over the rUK State Pension. That will be for folk domiciled in Scotland on Indy Day, perhaps with some residency qualification such as 1 year prior to Indy, either in receipt of the rUK state pension at that point or via transfer of their NI record for those not yet getting a pension. As we plan to increase the SUP to the EU average you don't want to encourage of rush of pensioners from England moving north just before Indy Day in order to qualify for a higher Scottish Pension.

After Independence there are existing mechanisms for transferring state pension entitlements between some countries which we could negotiate with rUK (for example Scots moving to England could transfer into the rUK state pension and the same in the other direction with a net payment one way or the other depending on how many and how many years of entitlement). Otherwise standard rules would be Scotland pays out entitlements to the SUP regardless of where you now choose to live, and rUK pays out their entitlements even if the pensioner chooses to move to Scotland.

itsasmallworldafterall · 11/02/2022 10:32

Fucks sake, all the shit Boris gets away with actually doing and yet all these commenters getting their knickers in a twist about a door cutting suggestion that isn't even happening

itsasmallworldafterall · 11/02/2022 10:34

Keep voting tory and there won't even be state pensions in the future.

LizzieMacQueen · 11/02/2022 10:36

Ok. Selfish question : Do you think it possible in any future independent Scottish country that the state pension might be means tested?

alicesfavouritepen · 11/02/2022 10:37

@itsasmallworldafterall

Fucks sake, all the shit Boris gets away with actually doing and yet all these commenters getting their knickers in a twist about a door cutting suggestion that isn't even happening
I would really have to agree. The door cutting hysteria on here is something else tbh.