SNP stance on pensions

[Mountaingoat12]

The SNP - in all of its past independence propositions - have been wildly optimistic, but with their latest stance on pensions they have moved to actually gaslighting their supporters. I just cannot comprehend it.

In 2014 the independence white paper stated that after independence, Indy Scotland would pay Scottish pensions. They seem to now be saying that following independence the rest of the UK (I.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland) will be responsible for paying Scottish pensions, which is just not at all true. Never has been, never will be. I find it just unfathomable. Trying to actually gaslight the electorate???

Oh I agree @mapleleavesreturn. The National is a comic for nationalist propaganda as far as I'm concerned. Which is why I think it's noteworthy that even they aren't buying the latest pension plan.

Well I confidently predict a boom for house prices just over the border! Form an orderly queue.

I agree whatever plan they come up with for pensions is going to deepen the post independence spending crisis.

On the whole I'm sympathetic to the idea Scotland wants freedom from Boris, so do I, but I don't want to spend the next 30 years in a series of economic crises to achieve it. Over what horizon will it be ok?

www.thenational.scot/news/19903694.scottish-independence-snp-told-reassure-voters-pensions-ahead-indyref2/

If even the National, Tony Giugliano and Business for Scotland are critical then you know it's gone down like a cup of cold sick.

Still scratching my head as to why the SNP thought this would increase the independence vote when it's so obviously bonkers.

Yet predictably the hard of thinking in the comments banging on about expats and their pension "pot" and a comment made in 2014 that was subsequently corrected.

I don't think their logic got much further than 'let's bribe pensioners to vote for indy by pretending they'll get a better pension'.

After all the pension triple lock has been a vote winner for the tories, maybe the tories inspired them?

@mapleleavesreturn

I don't think their logic got much further than 'let's bribe pensioners to vote for indy by pretending they'll get a better pension'.

After all the pension triple lock has been a vote winner for the tories, maybe the tories inspired them?

The UK Government have, of course, removed the triple lock on pensions. You probably know this, I'm just not sure!

I think they just say anything to persuade stupid people to vote SNP.

Big pensions. Laptops, bikes, our own energy company.

Lots of their supporters think the investment thing they set up was a central bank 🤷🏻‍♀️

The pensions triple lock was how Cameron bribed the electorate - I don't think that changed the point starry!

And the triple lock has been suspended, not removed, due to a covid related anomaly in the wage data.

@WouldBeGood

I think they just say anything to persuade stupid people to vote SNP.

Big pensions. Laptops, bikes, our own energy company.

Lots of their supporters think the investment thing they set up was a central bank 🤷🏻‍♀️

And lots also think we have a Scottish currency because Scottish banks release notes.

You'd think at some point it would sink in that the SNP never manage to follow through on their promises.

@Rainbowshit
I love your diagrams.

I can't believe for the life of me they actually thought the rUK would buy that.
The Scotland leaving is a totally different thing to ex-pats getting a pension from the UK.

The pension people who've left get is calculated on their NI contributions. And the last I heard it doesn't increase the way it would if they were living in the UK. With the reasoning being the UK doesn't benefit from them, ie they aren't spending in the UK so not paying VAT or any income taxes.

What would the Alba Party do about pensions?

Salmond is an exBanker, that's with a b. Then again he said of course an independent Scotland would have the Bank of England as central bank and underwrite the currency.....

I think they want a new currency, and to reject taking on any UK debt.

Not sure on pensions

Scotland has to pay Scottish pensions. There is no other option. If anyone tries to tell you anything else then they out and out lying.

Scotland also has to take its share of the UK debt. Any attempt not to do so would fail while at the same time ruin any attempt to make Scotland look like a serious, competent, responsible country. No one would ever lend to Scotland as who would trust them to repay? There is no other option than to take on Scotland’s fair share of the debt. Anyone that states otherwise is lying.

Why would the separatists choose to lie on either of the points above? Because economically an independent Scotland would be a disaster. The sums simply don’t add up. Lying about it in the hope that they can fool enough voters is the only chance they have.

Do they honestly think the rUK will let them walk away without there share of UK debts. Including Covid debts? .

Bonkers, and then think about defence includes China & Russia. They hold so much power. Its scary. And so much stuff is made in China.
Now is not the time to be screwing up the UK military forces.

If they told people the truth only a handful of zealots would vote for the economic and social destruction that would follow.

They have to lie.

I also think they’re not very clever and don’t understand economics.

It needs to be explained like a divorce.
If you are a couple with assets, big house and car. A mortgage and some money in the bank.

Can you seriously expect to turn the house into 2 semis but not still pay your share of the mortgage? No you can't the debt is shared.

Only one person can keep the car, who gets to keep it? They maybe need to buy the other person out. But the other person still needs a car.

Now think of the car as the navy's aircraft carriers, Scotland would own a 10th of tiny of the carriers, England would but us out. But we still need a naval defence and ships.
Now given the Scottish Government's success rate in buying ferries, I really wouldn't trust them to sort a Scottish Navy with boats.

They would probably put a gun onto the back of the marine Scotland research vessels they currently have (I don't think it's many btw) and call it a navy!

Good analogy @Lockdownbear.

@Scottishskifun if they can’t even build a ferry I’m not holding out hope for a navy!

My other thoughts was repaint the ferry's ⛴ and call them warships.

When I was young and daft I thought indy was a great idea. Now the more I think about it, and all the issues, I think it's nuts.

Russian warships in the Channel the other week, unidentified aircraft, they might just be keeping us on our toes but the cold War is heating up. And we've cut our defenses to the bone (along with everything else).

I'm convinced covid came out the lab. What were they doing messing around with viruses? It certainly doesn't strike me as they were playing, I can only assume malicious reasons behind it.
I think it was accidentally leaked but why were they messing around with it? Was it intended to be some sort of weapon.

@Lockdownbear

It needs to be explained like a divorce. If you are a couple with assets, big house and car. A mortgage and some money in the bank.

Can you seriously expect to turn the house into 2 semis but not still pay your share of the mortgage? No you can't the debt is shared.

Only one person can keep the car, who gets to keep it? They maybe need to buy the other person out. But the other person still needs a car.

Now think of the car as the navy's aircraft carriers, Scotland would own a 10th of tiny of the carriers, England would but us out. But we still need a naval defence and ships.
Now given the Scottish Government's success rate in buying ferries, I really wouldn't trust them to sort a Scottish Navy with boats.

Do you realise that its not 'debt' in the same way one would view household debt? Its an obligation to hold deposits and return them on maturity.

In an MS country like the UK or US, government debt (that's held in their own currency) reflects savings held at their central bank. This is very different to household debt where spending is reliant on income. Governments do not spend the receipts of bond sales. MS countries issue their own currency and do not need their own income to finance spending.

Hence why, I believe, in '14 , the Tories/ Cameron's understanding was that these would remain with the BoE. I believe that two fifths are held by private investors . The rest is the Gov lending to itself.

And hence why a Scottish currency and central bank is vital at the end of the transition period to an independent Scotland.

OK some of the debt is to BoE, some of it to other institutions. But bottom line, England are not going to let Scotland walk away without paying back.

We can't think we can borrow shed loads of cash and not pay back. Yeah well have a big furlough party, milk BoE dry, then run like fuck.

Not going to happen!

I suspect this is more about offsetting and related to share of national debt.

By this I mean working out a figure around pensions based on contributions paid to date/expected future expenditure on pensions. And then using that to offset against taking on a share of the national debt.

So less about expecting rUK government to continue to transfer pensions to people’s bank account on an ongoing basis.

Yes boe debt but there is other debts too ...."scotlands oil" would involve 50% of decommissioning costs for example from the tax payer. The number of very aged assets in the Scottish North Sea is extensive. These projects run to the hundreds of millions of pounds. Currently Scotland doesn't generate enough income tax to cover its costs even without this.

So crazy high taxes to pay for all these wonderful things is pretty much the o ky option. North Sea is so aged that companies would just pull out so many run on a knife edge as it is.
Renewable well that has been a massive wasted opportunity with majority of the works not undertaken by Scottish firms.

Some maybe happy to pay for independence at any cost many will not!

See diagrams on page 1 that someone helpfully drew which show exactly why the UK owes scotland precisely nothing in the way of pensions contributions. There is nothing whatsoever to offset.