SNP stance on pensions

[Mountaingoat12]

The SNP - in all of its past independence propositions - have been wildly optimistic, but with their latest stance on pensions they have moved to actually gaslighting their supporters. I just cannot comprehend it.

In 2014 the independence white paper stated that after independence, Indy Scotland would pay Scottish pensions. They seem to now be saying that following independence the rest of the UK (I.e. England, Wales and Northern Ireland) will be responsible for paying Scottish pensions, which is just not at all true. Never has been, never will be. I find it just unfathomable. Trying to actually gaslight the electorate???

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-book-that-shatters-the-snp-s-economic-myths

This looks like an interesting read in the context.

That is interesting @Scianel.

Mortgages with foreign currency was one of the things I’d asked about before in discussions on independence. No answer.

I am no friend to the SNP but even their most ardent supporters can't expect Scotland to be funded by the neighbours.

It comes from the same policy pot as cutting the bottom off doors.

If anyone genuinely cares about helping those in poverty the last thing they ought to be doing is supporting independence. It wouldn’t be austerity, it would be economic collapse. The state would not be able to function at all. This is what Blackford has realised, which is why he has decided to stay the UK will fund £8bn of pensions. No they won’t!!! Neither will they be able to fund current public sector jobs, education, NHS etc. It would just collapse.

If you genuinely want to help those in poverty, start voting Labour. They don’t make shit up, and they have the best chance of beating the Tories.

It is, in my view, almost certain that Scotland would take on the current UK State Pension and turn it into a new Scottish Universal Pension. There is no fund and it is paid out of tax so there is no reason why we would not do so. Typically there is about £15-20 billion in the National Insurance Fund at any one time, so we could claim £2 billion or so of that as transition funding which would cover maybe two months. We will be collecting our own tax and having our own currency after that so paying it isn't going to be a problem (and taxes don't fund spending, but the other way around).

It is also existing SNP policy to raise that pension to about S£300 / week which is the current EU average (£16,000 pa). The current UK state pension is the lowest in Europe.

So in practicalities if you are resident in Scotland at midnight on Independence Day then your state pension / national insurance record will transfer. If you are a current pensioner ScotGov will take on paying your Scottish Universal Pension. If you are still working then your record will go towards a SUP and not a UK pension. If you are Scottish but in Spain for example getting a UK state pension then that will continue to be a rUK responsibility. You would not get the new SUP unless you return to Scotland before Indy Day. Anyone moving from rUK to Scotland after Indy Day will continue to have a rUK state pension entitlement. They will not get any SUP unless they establish an entitlement by working in Scotland. There may be some negotiation between Scotland and rUK that might allow a transfer of pension entitlements, but at estimated payment rates then you would need two rUK years to earn 1 SUP year. International transfers of state pension rights are rare so this may not happen, in which case you might get say 25 years in the rUK scheme and 15 years in the ScotGov scheme.

For company schemes: The ScotGov, Scottish Health Service, Local Government, Police etc schemes are all already Scottish and will be paid in S£ at whatever rates have been agreed with the unions. These cover around 500,000 people. Company schemes will be paid as contracted, but where the scheme is rUK (e.g. British Airways Pension Scheme) then it will be paid in Sterling and you will have an exchange rate risk. If it is a Scottish company scheme such as Scottish Widows, RBS, etc then it will be paid in S£ at the agreed rates.

For private pensions, SIPPS, etc then it depends on whether the provider is rUK or Scottish. So e.g. if you use Aviva then they are an rUK company and will most likely continue the scheme in Sterling and pay in Sterling. If it is e.g. a Standard Life plan then you should have the option of switching it to S£ with payments then in S£.

If you e.g. retire to Spain after Indy Day then ScotGov would pay your SUP and any increases to you in Spain in S£.

If you move to rUK after Indy Day then if you are already a pensioner ScotGov will pay your SUP in S£. If you are still working then your number of years entitlement to the SUP will freeze at the current level (there may be a scheme for voluntary contributions as there is now with the UK state pension) and you would start to accumulate years in the rUK state pension scheme.

That's a very generous pension they are proposing. What sort of tax increases will be required to fund it?

And what will the new currency be?

Details, details. It's back to Swinney's Magic Money Tree.

😂😂😂😂starry you honestly crack me up.

It is, in my view, almost certain that...

Except none of that is current SNP
policy now is it?! They have said they expect the rUK to pay the pensions.

So how is it in any way certain or what people would be voting for. You can't just make up how you would like things to go and proclaim is as almost certain.

You might as well say in your view it's almost certain that pensions will be £10million a year for all the relevance of what you just said.

Any chance you could comment on the new policy declared by the snp that rUK should pay?

What would happen to all the money that Scots have given to Westminster over the past few decades for pensions etc? Would that be returned?

@TyrannosaurusRegina

What would happen to all the money that Scots have given to Westminster over the past few decades for pensions etc? Would that be returned?

All that money was spent paying pensions. Current pensions are paid out of current taxation. There's no pot built up like in a private pension. So no money to return.

@TyrannosaurusRegina

What would happen to all the money that Scots have given to Westminster over the past few decades for pensions etc? Would that be returned?

Given? Do Scottish people not get pensions then?

Ah, there you are @StarryEyeSurprise what took you so long? How can you churn out such naive nonsense, it sounds lifted from a Kate Forbes evening course at SNP college.

Seriously, your post is triggering for anyone who got through 2014 in one piece. The prospect of another period of this divisive nonsense is why my neighbour has sold her house and is moving away, as a family they don’t want to be here for another campaign. You talk of folk resident at midnight on ‘independence day’ (🤣), when in reality there would be a fair bit of tumbleweed blowing around the new town by the time that day arrived.

This shit gets real and frightening, it’s not just some half-baked SNP musical theatre story to play out when - in no particular order- pensions, healthcare, policing, education, employment, the entire scottish economy and any associated toytown currency are all at stake.

I think that StarryEye is right in that the pensions will be paid by Scotland. The concern is that Scotland currently gets £15bn a year via the Barnett formula, and with that still point the SNP would have a massive black hole in their budgets. How would they afford to pay pensions at the current level with a 15% drop in income?

That’s before you factor in those with mortgages who hot foot it to England as they cannot fund GBP mortgages with a devalued Scottish £.

And those that have to move to rUK as their jobs move.
And a hard border with 60% with your export market.
And a massive deficit to pay with a newly established bank.
And all of the extra civil service jobs to fund (I’m sure o remember the National saying there would be 53k more public sector jobs created as though having to fund these wages is a good thing!

And a recent OECD survey did the sums properly and showed the UK pension to be mid-market in the EU.

The original sums had not taken into account that a lot of countries don’t have workplace pensions - instead the company and employee pay much much higher contributions to the state pensions. And a lot of pensioners in EU countries have to fund healthcare from their pension. The original study was deeply flawed.

But yeh, levers will sort it!

Independence is a dead duck. It won't happen.IMHO. Its all pie in the sky.

@Mountaingoat12

I think that StarryEye is right in that the pensions will be paid by Scotland. The concern is that Scotland currently gets £15bn a year via the Barnett formula, and with that still point the SNP would have a massive black hole in their budgets. How would they afford to pay pensions at the current level with a 15% drop in income?

That’s before you factor in those with mortgages who hot foot it to England as they cannot fund GBP mortgages with a devalued Scottish £.

And those that have to move to rUK as their jobs move.
And a hard border with 60% with your export market.
And a massive deficit to pay with a newly established bank.
And all of the extra civil service jobs to fund (I’m sure o remember the National saying there would be 53k more public sector jobs created as though having to fund these wages is a good thing!

They'll have to pay the pensions as they will get laughed right out of any negotiations in which they ask the rUK to pay them.

I just wonder what they are playing at? Who's advising them? This policy is just such a gift to their opponents.

Although I guess the cutting off the bottom of the doors fiasco shows that they don't consult relevant people. Otherwise that would have been stopped in its tracks before they embarrassed themselves.

Been a bit of a shocker of a week for the SNP.

The ‘cutting off the door’ idea surely came from some advisor who loathes the SNP who was just checking to see if there was any intelligent life in the party whatsoever. Nope! None.

Reciprocal pension arrangements with other countries change all the time - UK pension arrangements with Australia, for instance, used to be pretty much 'like for like', with the country in which you were resident paying pension at local rates, and claiming from the country in which the pension contributions were paid. Doesn't happen now. DH has nearly 25 years of contributions paid in Australia. He will get nothing here in respect of those contributions, and Australia will not pay him because he's no longer resident there. He is hoping he'll be able to work here until he's 71 so he can claim a full state pension.

So, assuming there will be reciprocal arrangements is perhaps being a little hugely optimistic.

I have no faith left in the SNP. I do not trust them to be truthful about the worst case scenarios with regard to independence.

I used to have great faith in the SNP and was all for independence. It turns out I just wasn't paying attention, which covid forced me to. To say I went right off them would be the understatement of the century.
They actually appear to hate businesses, for instance. You know, those things that'll be funding the country with their taxes and providing jobs.

Reality is the tories are unscrupulous but also with years of investment training under their belts!
A divorce agreement which ruk pays for scotlands pensions is ridiculous and simply unachievable.
Scotland doesn't pay enough in income tax currently to cover its costs no idea without a huge tax rise how it would cover most things, pensions including.

The high paying business sectors many have substantial concrete back up plans to relocate offices after 2014 ready to go leaving more burden on others.

I don't wish to sell my house and move but I will go where my job goes and as the higher earner in my house that's highly likely to be England. DH job is transferable and in high demand across the UK.

I certainly don't believe in Independence at any cost financial struggle is no joke and I've been there before taking years to get out of it I am not being put back there by the SNP!

I've heard of a few people who just kind of assumed (especially after Brexit) that an independent Scotland and the UK would be more or less equivalent economy wise (so why not be 'free', it's 'normal', anyone questioning this is just doing Scotland down) but that was never a realistic proposition and now with COVID they're starting to realise the benefits of being part of a large economy. There's no way an independent Scotland could have paid for furlough for instance (it's not realistic to think we could have 'borrowed' at anything like a decent rate with a massive deficit, no currency and no central bank), or had the clout to negotiate the kinds of vaccine deals that we got which put us ahead of Europe.

The pension thing is just odd and very easily disproven, and I also wonder if it's an excuse to stoke division if those that don't pay attention and just look at the SNP headline position without taking the time to understand that pensions are paid from current taxation, and no you haven't actually built up a pot for the UK to 'steal'. A bit of red meat for the faithful maybe. It won't convince anyone in the middle (or anyone with any financial knowledge) that indy is a good idea though, and these are the people they need for a majority in a vote. Regardless, it doesn't help with the impression that the SNP are pretty useless in all matters financial, which I think is making some in the Independence movement a bit nervous. Even the National, who usually lead with 'Ian Blackford says Boris is a big meanie' type headlines have a call for 'clarity and certainty' on pensions on their front page.

The problem with the national is that whatever assertion the snp come up with on pensions will be accepted by them due to their lack of critical thinking skills.