Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

I don't want to sabotage Brexit negotiations but equally as an independence supporter I want a referendum before the UK takes us out

The reality us that we are out. Even if we go independence we are out. We were only in as part of the uk.

They have been very clear about the need to reapply in europe, so when that happens we will need to meet the criteria (which we are miles away from meeting at the moment)

She is not negotiating to give away anyones resources. She will be negotiating on free movement, trade and things like customs, intelligence etc

If scotland gets independence then the relationship will be negotiated between scotland and the rest of the uk.

She is leading people right up the garden path.

There us nothing getting taken from you. The SNP are trying to sabotage uk defences and brexit negotiations. That is pissing the rest of the uk off immensely which will not go down well and will hurt scotland badly in the long run.

Let me be clear I love Scotland.

That is why I want to stay in the UK.

Hugely admire you Fontella. You told me about this before and I am so pleased that you can share your views here.

I sound english and it is part of my identity.

I have family who are scottish nationalists of the similar kind to you sound like you were.

They were not bad people before they got involved just very proud which I always thought was nice, but the rhetoric of the SNP (and their scarier subsidiaries) has got them so indoctrinated that they are a shell of their former selves and are aggressively fascist towards english people (me too) and are so defensive of independence they can not see the reality of what is happening.

It is easy to think life is tough and to blame others. Everyone is guilty of it at some time or other and the snp is using that to take scottish people on a short walk to hell.

Few are going to be convinced by the idea that we should ditch conventional targets such as economic growth (and job creation presumably?) - the yes vote are going to have to do better than trash talking conventional economics if they don't want to experience a lot of conventional job losses!

My nationalist family members are relatively well educated and relatively well paid but such is the brainwashing they are willing to throw it all down the pan presumably. It is heart over head and hating the english. You can't get anything more sensible from them even though they are not thick. It is so upsetting.

That does not mean to say all people set on independence are like this.

People fall for some crazy shit.

is this possibly one of the most ill advised tweets ever?

Talk about setting yourself up .....

I am sorry you're having a hard time with your family members Gruff

Interesting article Fontella and I was quite sad reading it.

I hope things work well for UK and if Scotland does get a referendum and votes for independence I hope we are all allies after. I wish the UK the best of luck if it happens.

If independence doesn't happen (and I don't have a huge amount of confidence, I did in 2014 and was disappointed), let's hope we're ok.

I am aware of my naivete and can't help it.

It's OK calyx you have no need to apologise. You have not done anything wrong. I just am shocked at the emotions the SNP are stirring up in a lot of people and If I 'm honest I do find it frightening. Certainly as someone who identities as scottish, english and British and can see hardly any significant differences between scottish people and english people on the whole (except from some cool traditions, languages and our favourite FLAGS!!!)

I also think we have it pretty good up here ( standard of living wise) as ordinary working people. That is not the case all over the uk.

I hope you are OK too calyx. I just hope that will be the common sentiment in the rest of the uk after the snp poking at their ribs. I won't be here I hope.

I wish the UK the best of luck if it happens.

We'll be a lot better off than you my love. We outnumber you 12 to 1 and the UK even without Scotland has a much better chance of success.

All the infrastructure is in place for us to go it alone and we've got centuries of experience. The Brits have shown their resilience through crises of all kind, and Scotland going its own way is just another blip on the radar.

Scotland on the other hand has reduced itself down to being at the beck and call of English hating nationalists, and a vain hope that the EU can somehow save it, while turning its back on its greatest friend and ally and those with whom it has shared territory and history throughout its whole existence.

I am actually terrified for my friends and family, who I will leave behind if independence happens. I'll be a bit pissed off but as I was born in england hopefully I will have uk nationality so I'll be alright jack.

If you repeat that Scottish nationalists hate the English often enough does that make it true?

It is people like my parents, my aunts and uncles and my neighbours that I worry for. They will be given scottish nationality very likely and will have to meet tough entry requirements to live or work in the rest of the uk. If scotland turns in to a disaster I will be devastated.

Gruff - I think you're right about being the same but with our cultural differences and flags .

To quote another user's name let's hope it's all going to be fine!

Cheers guys

I haven't said that.

I have said my family members who are extreme nationalists do.

There is a difference.

Mostly scottish nationalists think they are a little bit better than everyone else, which is less intimidating for me.

The snp stir the anti english sentiment like nobodies business though.

That is what I love about the union. We all celebrate our cultures and wave our flags and that is not in any way supressed.

Language was historically suppressed and has made a big comeback which is great.

Second to last post was to iggi

Cheers calyx...

And fontella

If you repeat that Scottish nationalists hate the English often enough does that make it true?

I mentioned it once, as I believe it to be a motivating force behind this referendum call. I don't have any doubt of it based upon everything I have read, seen and engaged in, so instead of trotting out a trite one liner, why don't you seek to persuade me otherwise?

Because there is not one single sound argument for calling this referendum at this time other than political opportunism and nationalist zeal and the anti-English sentiment is apparent in almost every word I've heard out of a SNP mouth.

It won't benefit the Scots, the English, the Welsh or any citizen of the UK, in fact it will sabotage and derail them at a time when we need unity more than at any other time in recent history. But that doesn't bother the SNP in the slightest.

I'd go further and say, that no only are they anti-English, they are anti-Scottish and anti British.

And I'll repeat it if you like.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/03/4-ways-second-scottish-independence-campaign-would-be-different

That is coming from a former nationalist who hated the english is a fairly sound argument imho...