Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I don't really care what she takes.

I do

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Get us in the best possible position for Brexit

That's going to be hard given they are allowed no input into the process.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

If she is worth the pay she is entitled to take it. Theresa May is arguably doing the most important job in the country and gets paid £143k. In terms of level of responsibility , stress and hours it is not a huge salary compared with say medicine, law , accountancy and many other private sector jobs.

Whilst I thin it is utterly ridiculous to set first minister at Holyrood higher than the PM, but equally it's posturing for Sturgeon to go "oh look at me not taking my pay" She is either worth it or she isn't. If she isn't worth it , either do the job, or trot off.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

Exactly. There is not a shred of good faith in the SNP and Sturgeon.

I think this could be their biggest hurdle in the coming years - people are wise to their tricks now. We know that the SNP and NS will say and do anything to achieve independence, even if it is to the detriment of Scotland. We know that their previous white paper was a pack of lies, and that their stance on Brexit is an excuse to posture for independence. We know that they have a terrible record in office, and that the poor have suffered most.

People might have been willing to take them at their word and give them a shot a few years ago, but I imagine a lot of that good faith is lost now having observed them over the last few years.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Lass So if I understand your argument correctly, because she doesn't accept her full pay she is not worth it, and shes only doing it to get one over on May anyway? Are you Lord Foulkes?

(Lord Foulkes: The SNP are on a dangerous tack at the moment. What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the border in a number of areas.

Colin MacKay : Is this such a bad thing?

Lord Foulkes: No, but they are doing it deliberately

www.scotsman.com/news/the-diary-1-1159662)

[Bejazzled]

tinfoilhattie
But suggesting it, and having it turned down by Theresa May, gives her ample opportunity to bang on about "westmonster", "tories" and "denying democratic will".

I have noticed a subtle but quite telling change in the words used tonight. We always used to hear "against the democratic will of the Scottish people" NS has changed it to "against the democratic will of the Scottish parliament ".
She know that the Greens will support her in any Holyrood vote - I don't think she is confident at all that she will get a majority vote from the people this time.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

We know that the SNP and NS will say and do anything to achieve independence, even if it is to the detriment of Scotland. We know that their previous white paper was a pack of lies, and that their stance on Brexit is an excuse to posture for independence. We know that they have a terrible record in office, and that the poor have suffered most

I'm sure that will be echoed in the forthcoming council elections. I'll expect to see most of the SNP councillors losing their jobs.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

That's a good point Bejazzled.

Plus, it's also very easy to argue that this is not the will of the people (all the poll data, and now a rather public and well supported petition against this referendum. The counter petition isn't doing so well, despite the Scotman's best efforts). She will probably get it through parliament though, and use this technicality to show she has a mandate (and fudge the lack of popular support).

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

I'm sure that will be echoed in the forthcoming council elections. I'll expect to see most of the SNP councillors losing their jobs.

It should be shouldn't it? We'll have to wait and see.

[unlucky83]

itsall the point is they don't need input in the process to do that ....what they need to do is concentrate on running the country - tackling the deficit, sort out education, tackle the widening attainment gap (we are currently failing a generation - which will hardly put us in a good position in the future). Try and get us into the best possible situation to tackle the change. Forget independence and make the best of what we have ...
(And I know that isn't going to happen...)

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

For those of you critical of The First Minister and opposed to a referendum being mooted, what will satisfy you that Scottish interests are being represented in Westminster and the Brexit negotiations? Or do you think there is no need for specific representation?

[mirrorisnotmyfriend]

I'm quite happy with things as they are Gigha.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

what will satisfy you that Scottish interests are being represented in Westminster and the Brexit negotiations?

There should be representation from all of the devolved nations at all stages of the process, and WM representatives should at least pretend to respect and listen to their opinions.

Forget independence and make the best of what we have

ScotGov could make the best of what they have far more effectively if they had full control of it.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

As am I.

Lass So if I understand your argument correctly, because she doesn't accept her full pay she is not worth it, and shes only doing it to get one over on May anyway? Are you Lord Foulkes?

There is a going rate for the job (I think it is too high but that's not the point) If she think she is not up to doing the job , don't take it. It is sanctimonious posturing to refuse the salary.

[QueenLaBeefah]

I'm quite happy with the way things are. If the SNP applied themselves to the duties that have been devolved to Holyrood (education, police, NHS etc) I would be even happier. Sadly the SNP don't seem all that interested in that and want to concentrate on constitutional matters instead.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

ScotGov could make the best of what they have far more effectively if they had full control of it

ScotGov could do the job far more effectively if they actually concentrated on the day job, used the powers they have and produced intelligible legislation.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

I don't think there's any need for specific representation either. Our interests are being considered as are those of the rest of the UK.

Ideally, a cross-party negotiating team would be best, but given that the SNP members would probably do everything they could to scupper the process and prove it was terrible for Scotland I doubt that would work in practice.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

They have made a mess of land reform.

Much huffing and puffing of a couple of high profile buy outs and the rest a damp squib, leading to yet more land reform legislation, including acts which contradict each other.

And agricultural legislation which almost the entire industry, landlord and tenant, thinks is a mess.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

They have made a mess of land reform.

Now that I whole heartedly agree with. They have been way too timid and the whole debacle over council tax was ridiculous.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Land reform is the politics of envy. Vast amount of time and resources devoted to it; another useful distraction from not actually doing anything.

[unlucky83]

I also don't think there is a real need for specific representation. A lot of the problems facing Scotland are similar to ones faced by a lot of the UK outside the SE - fishing rights were mentioned - yes Scotland's fishing industry is approx twice the size of the English one - but England still has one...and fishing is actually one of the lowest economic activities in the EU - it isn't that big a deal to them...
NS needs to stop posturing and try to work with WM - stop being antagonistic (in the interest of Scotland - more like in the interest of the SNP/independence) - stop with the WM wants to screw us rhetoric and give a realistic 'these are the things that are most important to us in order of priority' list. We understand you might not be able to get all these things but we really need you to take them into consideration, do the best you can.

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Gosh. If Brexit had arisen pre-devolution I doubt there would have been such trust in a Conservative government. And political lobbying by the opposition would have been absolutely demanded not decried. Interesting.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

Gosh. If Brexit had arisen pre-devolution I doubt there would have been such trust in a Conservative government. And political lobbying by the opposition would have been absolutely demanded not decried. Interesting.

Pre-SNP maybe, at least in my case. I do trust them less than the conservative government, which I think speaks volumes about how let down I feel by the current Scottish government. As it is, I think they've demonstrated that they want to cause as much trouble as possible so that they can bolster their independence cause, and to hell with the consequences to anyone, including Scotland. I don't want our representatives anywhere near Brexit.

[Thegruffalowswife]

Youcannot. Nearly everything you are saying here is exactly as I feel. They could even be my own words.

[trixymalixy]

I agree. Good opposition is crucial, but in the end all should want the best for the country. The SNP do not want the best for the UK. They want to see Brexit negotiations fail.