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Second referendum part 2

999 replies

Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome · 16/03/2017 16:38

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

OP posts:
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18
Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 17:47

The fact that sillars is not even behind it should tell people all they need to know too.

He is a massive nationalist through and through.

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 17:49

There is nationalism and the desire for self governance and then there is utter utter madness.

This time it definitely is the latter.

Fontella · 21/03/2017 17:56

The fact that sillars is not even behind it should tell people all they need to know too

He is a massive nationalist through and through

The only reason Sillars is not behind it is because he has a clarity of vision when it comes to the EU itself and I share that view.

I realise that puts me at odds with most on this thread but I have studied the EU for the best part of 15 years and it is far from the safe haven of human rights and free trade that so many seem to think it is.

It has been disastrous for many small economies and the UK is only in a position to even have a Brexit vote in the first place, due to its decision to remain outside the Euro and retain our own currency.

I thank God every day that we never signed up to it, and that has nothing to do with being Welsh, British, pro-Brexit, anti-Brexit or anything else. It is pure sound economics and it would have killed our economy.

Post Brexit, I think that will start to become apparent to many other people outside of the UK, it is beginning already. Sadly anyone with a eurosceptic view is branded 'far-right' and that again, is the problem with soundbites and labels.

I've never voted for a right wing party in my life, although if I were Scottish I would be very tempted to vote for the Scottish Conservatives right now.

But when it comes to the EU institution I share Sillars' view.

unlucky83 · 21/03/2017 18:03

That is the scariest thing - all the negotiations and the initial, absolutely crucial Scottish government actions in the event of a Yes vote for independence would be done by the SNP - who (going by their track record) are incompetent, can't successfully run a country even as part of a union - (unless of course it is just down to deliberate actions to make a Yes vote more likely.)
However I can see a positive coming out of independence - SNP would not be able to point the finger of blame at Westminster and would have to take responsibility for their mismanagement - would die a death - and other parties would have more say - and actually Ruth Davidson might have a good chance of becoming FM - (not bothered about which party she is affiliated to - I just think she is fantastic and seems genuine)
However independence would be such a car crash and I believe the SNP are on the wane anyway - people are seeing them for what they are - so it isn't worth it .

Fontella · 21/03/2017 18:16

THEY are the poor buggers not even represented on the UJ which in my view is beyond reproach.

Ahem!

Grin

We have the best flag in the whole entire world and that is a fact.

We would not want the Draig (Dragon) on the Union Flag because it would not work well with the boring old straight lines of the St. George and the Saltire and the Ulster banner.

Ours is such that is should not be merged with anything inferior like the unimaginative old flags, what the rest of you lot have got!

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 18:16

Fontella, I am frightened of Brexit while in the Union. Prior to Brexit I was (and am) passionate about independence for Scotland because of the chance to self govern and become the normal country we could become.

I don't disbelieve the economists saying bad things about that White Paper but I choose to look for positives because I'm not an economist and because otherwise I would become very frightened and sad that it's not going to happen.

So heart over head, hope, faith in the new case for post Brexit independent Scotland (with a bank and a new currency case being worked on at the moment- see Common Weal)

At no time do I want to personally upset anyone or personally insult, patronise, belittle or anything and apologise if anyone feels I have.

I will keep reading the threads and try not to reply unless I can't help it (even though I don't have any answers that could possibly change someone's mind!)

NoLotteryWinYet · 21/03/2017 18:24

See Calyx it'll steal a giant piece of my heart when I have to leave an independent Scotland that doesn't offer a stable economic future for myself and my children - just as much of a heart over head issue on the no vote side. My whole heart is against this independence fight because I feel it's terribly wrong and bad for Scotland.

NoLotteryWinYet · 21/03/2017 18:25

I feel you and nyx have both been very nice to debate with! We all clearly feel very strongly about it.

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 18:32

Thanks Nolotterywin Smile it's good to read others' views and I have learned on these threads just how frightened those on the 'stay with UK' side are. I didn't know before.

If independence doesn't happen I won't leave, we will be having to work together as a matter of no choice. But I really really want this choice.

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 18:39

See Calyx it'll steal a giant piece of my heart when I have to leave an independent Scotland that doesn't offer a stable economic future for myself and my children - just as much of a heart over head issue on the no vote side. My whole heart is against this independence fight because I feel it's terribly wrong and bad for Scotland.

I too would be heartbroken and my families identities from various parts of the uk would be ripped to bits.

My house would be sold an I wouldn't be able to afford to buy similar where I was from.

My husband's business would be in tatters.

It is ok to vote for independence based on your heart, bit I fear there will be generation after generation of severe poverty of the kind not encountered for generations.

I also fear conflict may arise.

You are right fontella I am a bit jealous as your flag is the coolest.

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 18:41

The Welsh flag is totally the coolest flag

Alwaysinahurrynow · 21/03/2017 18:43

Unlike me, I will be leaving if independence happens. Tbh I might leave anyway due to the fact that unless the referendum terms are absolutely clear in that there cannot be an indyref3, I have no confidence that the SNP would respect a No vote (assuming the same question here) and I really don't want to go through the uncertainty again. I love living here but love the UK as a whole more.

I want the SNP to deliver for Scotland with the powers they have and prove they can make those a success before asking for a referendum.

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 18:43

It is. Our royal standard is cool too though.

I've gone off the saltire which upsets me a bit as I feel it was hijacked by the yes campaign Sad

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 18:45

Always in a hurry. We are too thinking of this. I don't feel secure any more in our future here.

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 18:50

We'd need to look at how to wind down the hubbys business though which is a real wretch. We spent so long working on it and even braved all the hard times of the recession, but the fact is we don't feel secure any more.

I feel like one day she'll just march out and declare it as independent. She's like veruca salt after 5 lines of coke. You just don't know what she is going to do next.

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 18:52
Fontella · 21/03/2017 18:58

because of the chance to self govern and become the normal country we could become.

But there's nothing 'abnormal' about you now?

Look at the history of every single nation on earth and it will involve merger, conquest, takeover, alliance. Not one of the modern day countries on earth just rose up with clearly defined borders and a nice neat, normal history.

You know the history that led up to the act of Union and you know all about our shared history as Britons - those of us of Brythonic, Goidelic, Romano-Celt, Pict, Angle, Saxon, Jute ancestry who populate these small islands, and that includes 'The English' themselves.

The Catalonians have a far greater case for Independence than Scotland ever had but you rarely hear about them. The ludicrous suggestion by one SNP MSP today that the 'eyes of the world' are on the Scottish parliament, made me laugh out loud. The rest of the world couldn't give a shit. They don't care about the UK let alone Scotland, but the sense of self-importance from the SNP which they have somehow persuaded you all is true, is staggering.

Just look. at Catalonia - it might help you put the Scottish Independence movement into perspective.

  1. Catalonians make up around 16% (7.5 million) of Spain’s 47 million inhabitants. In contrast, the 5.3 million Scots represent just 8.3 per cent of the UK's overall population.
  1. Unlike Scotland, Catalonia was militarily conquered. Scotland not only 'ruled' England through monarchy, but also entered into a voluntary act of Union.
  1. Catalonia is the economic powerhouse of Spain and accounts for a 20% of Spain’s national GDP. By contrast Scotland account for just 8.2% of UK GDP.

4, Like Scotland, Catalonia has its own language, but it is far more widely spoken than Scottish Gaelic. 73% speak Catalan in Catalonia, 95% understand it, 56% can write it. Compare that to Scottish Gaelic spoken by just 1.1% of the population.

5, Unlike Scotland, Catalonia does not have the constitutional right to referenda and any they may hold or intend to hold, are ignored and indeed, actively blocked by Spain. By contrast, your 'ignored' SNP led government, continually seeks centre stage. Theresa May has yet to 'block' anything, but has merely said that you will not dictate the timescale, as it is a decision that can not only harm the whole of the UK, but is not fair on the Scots themselves.

It's time to take the tartan clad chip of your shoulder and start to see the world as it really is. The constant rhetoric of 'Westminster' and 'The Tories' getting shoehorned into every sentence, is becoming stale and lame now. Even the Scots themselves are tiring of it.

Have your 2nd referendum by all means. But just don't have it due to some bigoted nationalist agenda deliberately designed to sabotage the Brexit negotiations, that will affect all of us in the UK, not just a vocal and self-serving Scottish nationalist movement (who represent just 3% of the Uk population) who don't even represent the Scottish people, let alone the rest of us.

Fontella · 21/03/2017 19:14

The Welsh flag is totally the coolest flag

Bloody hell - we agree on something!

We're better singers than you and all! And the English and the Irish.

I'm got something in my eye ....

Fontella · 21/03/2017 19:24

At no time do I want to personally upset anyone or personally insult, patronise, belittle or anything and apologise if anyone feels I have.

`You don't Calyx, not at all you have been valiantly fighting your corner and I admire you for it. I was you once, albeit in a different time and place. Apologies if I have been a bit strident in tone as well.

Smile

Scottish Independence may well happen in the future. In fact I think it is probable, but it if happens it will be in a much more certain world than the one we have today.

I just don't think anyone who really cares about Scotland should be pushing and agitating for it now. There is also something else to consider. If the SNP lose - what then? Losing twice in just five years could result in irreparable damage to the Scottish Independence movement.

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 19:25

I love the rugby... and yes I love how good the Welsh team are at singing!

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 19:26

Just for the record though. I do prefer it when the Scots or the english win.

If we are not playing then goooo waaaales!

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 19:28

Fontella Smile loved the Welsh National Anthem and yes Wales has the best voices.

I hope the Catalans get independence but acknowledge it's different from Scotland of course.

I don't want to sabotage Brexit negotiations but equally as an independence supporter I want a referendum before the UK takes us out and I don't want TMay to use Scotland's resources in her negotiations (as I want them for independent Scotland of course)

I was reading an article which made me think of this thread
bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/03/21/faded-yes-all-stars/

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 19:28

I just don't think anyone who really cares about Scotland should be pushing and agitating for it now. There is also something else to consider. If the SNP lose - what then? Losing twice in just five years could result in irreparable damage to the Scottish Independence movement.

This

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 19:30

If independence doesn't happen now Fontella I think it really is over for the foreseeable future.

I don't mind strident and enjoy your well referenced posts. You're definitely making me think.

Fontella · 21/03/2017 19:35

I don't mind strident and enjoy your well referenced posts. You're definitely making me think.

And I definitely understand your passion! I wish I could tell you some things about my younger days ... but I can't!

You might find this interesting reading though.

jacothenorth.net/blog/tag/meibion-glyndwr/

(in particular - 'Plaid goes left and green and disappears up its own arse').