Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

Project fear doesn't cut both ways.

You are out of the eu with the uk and you will need to reapply to get back in as an independent country.

If you go independent you piss off your nearest neighbour strongest ally and biggest trading partner, who owes you nothing.

And the bollocks they are doing at the moment where they are fucking around with defence and trying to fuck with brexit negotiations is making the rest of the uk very pissed off indeed.

There you go with threatening words again. You are saying if Scotland votes to become independent, our big neighbor will be pissed off. If it happens it will be democratically decided so what would they do?

Plus although brexit has happened you seriously are crazy if you think that the uk will not have influence in the eu at all if we are out. Have you seen how much germany exports to ruk and have you noticed that we are one of the biggest contributors to Nato.

I live in scotland... I am asking the snp to fecking stop this antagonising bullshit before they ruin things for us. They have no idea what they are wading in to.

Fucking with uk defences is serious shit and will benefit nobody in scotland.

It's anyones guess

If you need another referendum fine.

I don't want one but it would be fine for me if it was a period of stability.

The snp are acting like saboteurs and God only help you when the rest of the uk have had enough.

Arthur Donaldson did found the snp and he wanted to set up a quisling nazi government so it is nothing new.

The irony that a snp member called english people quislings is quite uncanny.

Sorry lost my rag

I believe it is time for Scotland to run ourselves because over the years the union has been so unequal in many ways. We are not an equal partner. We are blamed for Scotland's economic situation when we are not allowed fiscal autonomy. We are allocated spending on things we would not choose to spend on. We are not allowed to negotiate our own fishing rights in the EU. We are vibrant and capable and have a lot going for us. Our elected representatives are sneered and 'woofed' at in parliament and were not even informed of the triggering of S50. The thought that we could make a success of running our own country is scoffed at even though when you look at somewhere like Norway, we are similarly made up and the difference is that Norway haven't had Westminster dragging them down.

Haven't read the whole thread but am just back from a meeting at the Scottish Parliament. I have stopped say the mood is grim. One nameless govt spokesman said the vote tomorrow will go 69 to 68 in SNP favour " because it always does". Greens ,who normally have no power, have been promised concessions to vote with SNP to give them the majority they need to ask for another referendum, which they won't get but that doesn't matter. NS can say that she asked but nasty Westminster refused. Morale among the business community is low. I know some people on a personal level who want another referendum but I have yet to find even ONE single business owner who wants one. 2 years of argument and division on this will wreck an already jittery economy.

I've read all your comments with interest. I'm a Scot who has lived in England for 20 years, my children were born and brought up in England. In the 2014 Referendum, I was desperate for Scotland to remain in the U.K., partly because we always thought we would move back to Scotland. Now I think we have been away too long. I don't want to live in a country governed by the SNP whose main objective is Independence to the detriment of everything else nor do I want to be part of building a new Scotland if it does become Independent. Perhaps if I was just starting out but not at this stage in my life. The economic arguments just don't stack up for me and I don't believe that SNP policies are beneficial to Scots in the long term - they make great sound bites but have a look at some of the Higher Education threads on Scottish University funding - they make for interesting reading. I have many SNP members in my family and I do respect their point of view but honestly they just never stop moaning and complaining. Sadly I feel that many of us living outside Scotland, hear the SNP and think what are they whinging about now. I also struggle with this strange clipped delivery of the same phrases over and over - it really is very odd. I just don't remember Scottish politicians sounding like this - John Smith, Donald Dewar, Gordon Brown, Ruth Davidson and let's not forget Tommy Sheridan! They all had/ have their own personalities as well as sticking to party policy. The SNP 'brand' makes them all sound like some kind of robot.
In 20 years, I can think of 3 occasions where someone has said something derogatory about the Scots/ my accent in England but I've lost count of the number of times friends, family, taxi drivers in Scotland have made a 'wee joke'/ unpleasant comment about the English. It's with a very heavy heart that I can't see me coming 'home' anytime soon.

It has been democratically decided that we stay in.

Badgering people with constant referendums until they get their way is the stuff of authoritarain regimes.

Not democracies.

She is ghettoising scotland.

Greens ,who normally have no power, have been promised concessions to vote with SNP

That in itself is frightening enough. No doubt pandering to Andy Wightman's agenda.

Cream coloured. I was raised by 2 scottish parents escaping thatcher in the 70s in the home counties.

We can't wait to come home. Scotland is not what it was when we moved here. Stay there in the hope that you do not get claimed as a scottish citizen .I pray that being born on england will save me.

I think the mood is quite unpleasant at the moment. There is genuine fear and anger at Brexit as it is, and now the threat of another Indyref on top of that. I know I keep speaking about the business community but that's my area of expertise and why I have to get involved in discussions at the Parliament from time to time, but I can't stress strongly enough the mood and emotions in businesses large and small. It's not anecdotal. We hear first hand from businesses planning to relocate, lay off staff, cancel contracts if we are forced into another Indyref. A Scotland coming out of the EU AND coming out of the union is not an attractive proposition for inward investment.Businesses already struggling with things like pension auto enrolment, digital tax, apprenticeship levy, rates increases and waste compliance do not need another thing to worry about. And yet we have a First Minister who is quoted as saying "Independence is more important than the economy". She ACTUALLY said that.
I despair.

God help us all and I'm not religious

Haven't read the whole thread but am just back from a meeting at the Scottish Parliament. I have stopped say the mood is grim. One nameless govt spokesman said the vote tomorrow will go 69 to 68 in SNP favour " because it always does". Greens ,who normally have no power, have been promised concessions to vote with SNP to give them the majority they need to ask for another referendum, which they won't get but that doesn't matter. NS can say that she asked but nasty Westminster refused. Morale among the business community is low. I know some people on a personal level who want another referendum but I have yet to find even ONE single business owner who wants one. 2 years of argument and division on this will wreck an already jittery economy

Thank you so much for that dementedma a real life contribution to a speculative thread (where we have been slugging it out all day) and a very sobering and depressing one.

I am intrigued though by the 69 to 68 split. For that to happen it means that some Greens have to vote against or some SNP have to vote against? Based upon fwhat you've heard and seen today, do you think that is a real possibility?

I have read this thread with interest, it has been extremely interesting!

I just wanted to comment on SNP scots being 'anti-english'.

I married a scot, we live in London. When I first met DH's family over a decade ago half his family were lovely, the other half made lots of jokey digs about my Englishness which I took on the chin, but although they did make me feel uncomfortable it was quite easy to 'banter' back.

Lo and behold the lovely half of DH's family are sad about brexit but massively pro union still and devestated about the divisions, incidentally they all very much dislike sturgeon. The 'jokey' lot love sturgeon and are frankly getting more 'racist' by the day.

One of them had the cheek to say to me that 'scots are not racist like the English, we actually like immigrants'. Just as an aside the vast majority of my workplace are immigrants (and not just from Europe, Kenya, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, china, America etc are also represented) and I love that, have met some lovely people and honestly am really pro immigration. I voted remain, but honestly can't see immigration stopping with brexit. I was actually really upset by that comment. I grit my teeth and keep my mouth shut now when they talk about how much better Scotland will be when not shackled to the English. Incidentally not one of DH's SNP supporting family works with any immigrants. They are well off live in this angry victimised bubble as far as I can see.

I hope Scotland remains in the U.K. for the sake of the lovely side of my DH's family. But I'm so sick of the bloody SNP!

Wow that was cathartic

I believe it is time for Scotland to run ourselves because over the years the union has been so unequal in many ways. We are not an equal partner.

Of course you're not an 'equal' partner. There are 5 million Scots and 60 plus million other UK residents. You get the same parliamentary representation as the rest of us, plus your own parliament on top of that What 'equality' do you want' exactly? You represent just 8% of the overall UK population? What 'equality' do you think you are going to find in the EU with 28 other countries with their own national issues and concerns in front of you?

And if you think it is 'time' for you to govern yourself then you better set about persuading your fellow Scots of that, because they don't seem to be convinced.

Have you met a single business owner who wants a hard brexit demented? I know a business owner who wants independence.

Dementedma, the poll in this link doesn't claim to be scientific, but it certainly backs up what you say.

www.frenchduncan.co.uk/news/french-duncan-news/indyref2-survey-results/

Please please please I'll snog 2 members of the scottish parliment just for them to see sense ( kidding-as that would be bribery) I still would though if it was legal FGS!!!! ( they are nearly all gay so as a straight person ot might be strange but I'll give it a go FGS!!! HEEEELP!!!!

I'm not a celebrity get me out of here!!!

Nyx you seem obsessed with this false equivalence that no voters are in favour of Brexit.

I know of no business owners who want either Brexit or independence. Why would any of them want to shrink their market?

Sorry got carried away

There you go with threatening words again. You are saying if Scotland votes to become independent, our big neighbor will be pissed off. If it happens it will be democratically decided so what would they do?

Your 'big neighbour' as you call it would be mightily pissed off at this time because the division and distraction of a referendum can only serve to sabotage EU negations that affect many millions across the UK.

If however, Scotland decided to become independent in a post Brexit world, then I think there are many people in the UK who might well heave a sigh of relief. There is already a change of mood south of the border as the comments section of any newspaper, article, or blog will tell you ... and it becoming increasingly apparent that other UK residents are growing heartily sick of the constant grievance mentality of the SNP that seeks only to divide, blame and disrupt.