Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

I think Theresa must be a secret Yesser. She's done more for the movement today than a thousand campaign events could ever achieve

From the old thread. TM has behaved like a grown up. Only a die hard freedom over every thing supporter could
come to the conclusion above

I think TM made the only sensible choice. I'm kind of resigned to the fact that there will be another referendum at some point (although the thought makes me sick), but the proposed timing was absurd. Not only would the distraction and upheaval pretty much guarantee that the UK (and so Scotland) got less than the best possible deal, it would mean voting blind, before we even know the impact of Brexit!

Scotland is going to be out of the EU regardless and will have to reapply, senior EU officials have made that clear repeatedly (even if the odd MSP disagrees), so the idea that we can 'choose a different path before it's too late' is absolute nonsense, with nothing at all the back it up.

I agree with you both!

Actually I just posted on the other thread saying it's a sensible decision.
We need to know how Brexit is going to pan out and that will give us all the information we need to make a balanced decision.

I have to say, I don't like the whining and accusations of Westminster bullying poor wee Scotland and denying our rights and sealing the fate of the union etc etc - it's all being trotted out already, almost as if they had statements preprepared for it.

The posturing and whining and 'poor Scotland, we're being ignored' is all just white noise to me now. I've come to see everything they say as some kind of political posturing, and I don't take any of it seriously. Especially in the current circumstances!

The referendum is planned for after the terms of Brexit are clear. So not 'voting blind'. Not as blindly as people voted on brexit itself. Isn't that hypocritical of Teresa May?

I am a bit meh about this spat.
I think both were doing their jobs, no more, no less but that both could have done so very differently.

I am more concerned with all the mouth foaming at what was politically inevitable manoeuvring.

There is only one Prime Minister of The UK and she is responsible for the terms in which we (all the UK) will leave Europe.

The First Minister for Scotland is representing Scottish interests in a process the majority of Scottish voters were opposed to, so has to be seen to fight for inclusion in the process. Or do nothing and look weak.

If it appears that inclusion/compromise was not forthcoming, the possibility and request for an appropriately timed Referendum was inevitable. I guess we will never know whether NS was reasonable in stating this was the only option left open.

The reality is that the devolved parliaments are pretty toothless in the wake of such huge Brexit uncertainties. The jibes about sticking to the day job are a bit frustrating given that (one assumes) the established EU structures and our budgets/economy projections are fairly fundamental to most governmental planning and policy implementation.

This is unknown territory and personality politics is going to make it awful. But the Prime Minister and Brexit team need to inspire confidence that they are on top of a Brexit plan that brings the whole UK with them.

Its all so unedifying. I just think all of this paves the way for a new political party without all the historic baggage and polarisation to motor through.

As a No campaigner and blogger has stated (quoted on the BBC live reporting feed)

"A pox on both their houses".

I dont disagree with that. And we have a long way to go.

I think Sturgeon must be massively relieved. She wasn't going to win it and if she did Scotland would have to go through Greece style levels of austerity.

Still it gives her plenty of time to work on the new white paper but this time properly costing out how much this would cost; what currency we would use and how we would establish our own central bank.

I can't see that TM could have done anything differently tbh.

Whether people were or not informed enough before the Brexit vote has got sod all to do with the fact that Scots should be as fully informed as possible before making what is an even bigger decision. Why make the same mistakes as the past?

The final terms will presumably only be known at the end point of negotiations, but to know the impact of those terms, and how any repatriated powers will be divvied up, will presumably take a little longer. It's only reasonable to wait until the dust settles before asking such a big question (and that's without considering the negative impact the campaigning during the Brexit negotiations will have on what is achievable). If it's the disaster that NS seems convinced it will be, surely waiting until afterwards can only strengthen her hand (as the polls show she's behind right now).

Queen. Absolutely. Unlike some commentators I do not think this was a rabid deluded, self-interested independence bid, it was a frustrated warning shot.

Hopefully there are a lot of economists and social policy thinktanks still beavering away as we speak, am monitoring as many as possible for non-partisan assessments.

I think it was Sturgeon appeasing her party members who she had whipped into a frenzy - she knew Theresa May would say no. The SNP are at their happiest campaigning and have pretty much given up on governing.

not only would the distraction and upheaval pretty much guarantee that the UK (and so Scotland) got less than the best possible deal, it would mean voting blind, before we even know the impact of Brexit!

Exactly this. And Nippy Nikki knew it was totally impossible to have a referendum within her suggested timescales. But suggesting it, and having it turned down by Theresa May, gives her ample opportunity to bang on about "westmonster", "tories" and "denying democratic will".

PIglet I am thinking TM could be seen to be demonstrably more inclusive, less dismissive, and the government could be far more transparent. As I think Plectrum said on an earlier thread, the process appears to have remained very much closed shop. I appreciate that negotiations are delicate but cross party working groups and far more positive noises from fair-minded politicians would reassure.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there tinfoil. A last ditch attempt to manufacture grievance and gain support, after Brexit didn't have the impact she hoped it would.

I also still think that the SNP think that Scots are a lot keener on Europe than they are. I voted Remain in June as overall I thought that it was the best thing for the UK as a whole to stay in the UK.

Another referendum boils down to a choice between UK and Europe. I would imagine most people - except the most fervent English-hating nationalists - would vote to remain in the UK. It;s closer, it's an age-old relationship, we share small islands. It's a no-brainer.

There are also many yes voters who want out of the EU and that's an even worse scenario, Scotland totally isolated from everyone.

Sturgeon is not doing her job. That is the problem. This was ill judged , blinkered nationalism.

She is the highest paid politician in the UK and she has spent the last 8 months doing the job she would like to do and not the one she is paid to do. An utter disgrace.

The final terms will presumably only be known at the end point of negotiations

Which should be at the end of 2018 / beginning of 2019...

She is the highest paid politician in the UK

Link? I thought she'd turned down the payrise?

"The final terms will presumably only be known at the end point of negotiations

Which should be at the end of 2018 / beginning of 2019..."

Safer to wait until it's signed on the dotted line though surely, rather than having a vague outline that could be subject to last minute changes. Also, I note you missed off the last part of my comment:

"but to know the impact of those terms, and how any repatriated powers will be divvied up, will presumably take a little longer. It's only reasonable to wait until the dust settles before asking such a big question"

She is eligible for £146,700. Theresa May is eligible for £143,000.

Goodness only knows how this was set but how anyone could think the first minister at Holyrood is worth more than the PM is mind boggling.

I don't really care what she takes.

I think it was a calculated move to obviate a 2 year referendum campaign. I agree, another referendum should only be held when the Brexit terms are known and fully evaluated by independent think tanks etc.

I suspect Brexit negotiations will go absolutely to the wire ...hence all the talk of going off a cliff edge etc...I suspect things will keep changing until the last minute. See who holds their nerve.
We need to go in hard - asking for a lot and be prepared to compromise - the EU will do the same...
We won't actually KNOW the exact terms it is signed off - plus a referendum would be a distraction for the UK government -at what I suspect will be the most crucial time.
And if we did vote for independence before then - it wouldn't be instant -it will take at least a year if not more to sort out - to disentangle -and more negotiation.
(We have been in the Union with a much closer relationship for a lot longer than we have been part of the EU -and that is going to take 2yrs ...and people say that is tight...)

So Scotland is going to Brexit and live with the terms agreed for at least a year - no matter what the result of a referendum held before March 19.
In the next year or so the UK AND Scottish Governments should be concentrating on minimising the impact of Brexit - not playing politics campaigning for a referendum.
I guess NS was counting on TM refusing to allow one before Brexit -and so she can turn round and moan about the WM ignoring the will of the Scottish parliament etc...
I just hope NS gets her act together and the Scottish Government put their head down now for 2 yrs, shut up about independence and start doing the best for Scotland with the powers they have. Get us in the best possible position for Brexit.

They might actually have more chance of winning an independence vote then - the economics be better.
Except of course - if people are content they are less likely to vote for change - independence - so the SNP don't want that ...in fact it is in their interest to make Brexit the biggest disaster possible for Scotland. It really is independence at all costs. It makes me feel sick.

Except of course - if people are content they are less likely to vote for change - independence - so the SNP don't want that ...in fact it is in their interest to make Brexit the biggest disaster possible for Scotland. It really is independence at all costs. It makes me feel sick.

Exactly. There is not a shred of good faith in the SNP and Sturgeon.

So Scotland is going to Brexit and live with the terms agreed for at least a year - no matter what the result of a referendum held before March 19

We'll, at least Scottish assets (eg fishing) will be off the table in negotiations now...