Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

So you think NS should be prepared to ignore the law, spend public money on SNP propoganda and require the Electoral Registration officers to conduct an illegal ballot?

[Nyx]

Literally thousands of grassroots members ready and willing to campaign for nothing, don't worry. It's only the conservatives that have to buy elections (I believe there are some investigations going on at the moment?)

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I'm pretty sure governments can multitask

Little evidence of that so far. In my sector we are awash with unimplemented legislation bashed through and now languishing with time scales slipping and slipping and slipping.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

This is the wording of the Green party manifesto on the subject of a second independence referendum:

"If a new referendum is to happen, it should come about by the will of the people, and not
be driven by calculations of party political advantage."

How could they justify supporting a second referendum at this time? All of the available evidence suggests that it is not the will of the people to hold a second referendum now, so surely they would be breaking their own manifesto pledge to fall in line behind the SNP on this.

[remoaniac]

I'm not particularly knowledgeable on Scottish issues. I'm from Southern England and I agree that Southern England and Scotland have some quite different issues. However, I would be very sad if Scotland were to leave the UK. (I admit I was very happy when the vote was to stay). I think Scotland is great and I've always felt very welcome there when I've visited. I think the UK is a very different union than the EU set up. I think the relationships and history is stronger. The way Sturgeon talks she makes out that all Scots hate the English and feel closer the the EU Parliment than the UK Parliment. I don't think that is overwhelmingly the case. Scotland voted to stay in the EU but not by a huge margin. Sturgeon makes out that all Scots are desperate to be in the EU but that wasn't really the case

I could have written this post :)

And people voted to remain in or leave the EU for all sorts of complicated reasons. SNP voters voting to Leave who really wanted to Remain but knowing that it was more likely to lead to another indyref. And the other way round - people who actually wanted to leave, voting to remain because they were worried about another indyref if the UK voted to leave the EU and valuing the UK over the EU. I'd not thought about it being the other way round but there was a comment on one of the newspaper websites saying exactly that.

So even with a simply yes/no question you get tactical voting.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

And I presume that Scottish Conservatives / Labour / Lib Dems would be campaigning against

Oh I see, so it's not just the governing party who puts the everyday concerns of Scots on the back burner, but all the opposition parties have to too just to make sure that nothing that matters is discussed? The Scottish government already appears to be struggling to keep up with the demands of office, and another extremely drawn out referendum campaign is hardly going to help matters.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

All of the available evidence suggests that it is not the will of the people to hold a second referendum

Apart from the fact they voted in a majority of pro indy MSPs....

Oh I see, so it's not just the governing party who puts the everyday concerns of Scots on the back burner, but all the opposition parties have to too just to make sure that nothing that matters is discussed

So governments can't multitask, can't take on more than one issue at once?

[NoLotteryWinYet]

I don't like politics by tweet, no, because it is dumbed down and patronizing but I do think that we have to beat the SNP at their own soundbite politics since that is the level at which the debate is being conducted.

Nyx congratulations on your degree - the exception that proves the rule eh?

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

And by "unimplemented " I don't mean it hasn't achieved what was intended but that is sitting on the statute books but hasn't been put in force.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

So governments can't multitask, can't take on more than one issue at once?

They are struggling to implement their current legislative programme.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

Apart from the fact they voted in a majority of pro indy MSPs....

We've had this argument before. People vote for parties for many different reasons, and you can't pick one particular issue in a manifesto and assume support for it. Especially given that the SNP have made clear in the past that a vote for them was not necessarily a vote for independence. The only available information on this particular question is from poll data, which pretty unanimously shows that people do not want another independence referendum now.

So governments can't multitask, can't take on more than one issue at once?

This one certainly can't.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

people do not want another independence referendum now.

No-one wants a referendum now, they want one in 18 months time...

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

People vote for parties for many different reasons, and you can't pick one particular issue in a manifesto and assume support for it.

In which case, the only way to unpick that is to have a single issue referendum...

[Nyx]

Sweden have a lot of referendums (referenda?) and it works very well. It's very democratic.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

No-one wants a referendum now, they want one in 18 months time...

Slightly pedantic, but OK. They want one before Brexit, and before the impact of Brexit is known. Polls show that people don't want that.

In which case, the only way to unpick that is to have a single issue referendum...

Except that referenda are expensive, take time away from governing the country, and, most importantly, people don't want one.

[NoLotteryWinYet]

referendums aren't particularly democratic, i'm sure in political theory over-use is frowned upon. Will research that again (from old memory). Lots of dictators love referenda.

Here, you have referendums that attract cross-party support being implemented by the governing party - the issue with Brexit for example, and also the issue with independence.

[Nyx]

Is Sweden a dictatorship then? Wasn't aware of that. I will need to do more research, thanks.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

Is Sweden a dictatorship then? Wasn't aware of that.

Did anyone say it was?

[Nyx]

My objection to a referendum being blocked until after Brexit is the ability of EU nationals in Scotland then being denied a vote.

[Nyx]

Or their ability to vote being denied. On phone!

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

My understanding is that it is very unlikely that EU nationals will be thrown out of the UK after Brexit because no-one really wants that, and that the only reason they haven't already been given firm assurance of a right to remain is a procedural one (they need a reciprocal assurance from the EU about UK expats, and the EU isn't prepared to do this until article 50 is triggered). Presumably, if article 50 is triggered soon this can be resolved soon.

But given that they're unlikely to be kicked out anyway, I don't see why they would be denied a vote.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

But given that they're unlikely to be kicked out anyway, I don't see why they would be denied a vote

Because, AFAIK, they are able to vote only because we are in the EU. Not all resident foreigners get a bite, EU residents are a special case, and as such while they may possibly be allowed to remain, they are unlikely to retain their voting rights.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

Because, AFAIK, they are able to vote only because we are in the EU. Not all resident foreigners get a bite, EU residents are a special case, and as such while they may possibly be allowed to remain, they are unlikely to retain their voting rights.

That's interesting. My understanding was that the terms of the vote were largely within the remit of the Scottish government last time, which is how they were able to choose the (not exactly neutral) question, and allow 16-17 year olds the vote etc. I wonder if a special case could be made for EU nationals in any future referendum - assuming of course that's it's deemed fair that EU nationals get a vote while other nationals don't. There's an argument to be made there too - either give them all the vote, which I think is fair personally, or none, but be consistent with the rules.

[cdtaylornats]

The SNP government hasn't passed a bill into law in 18 months.

One of the reasons I voted Remain was that in the unlikely event of the SNP winning independence the EU might keep us safe from Sturgeon. Failing that I am tempted to flee to either England or Eire.

[Thegruffalowswife]

And i was poor and got loads of higher and went to uni, thanks. Which I absolutely wouldn't have done if I'd had to pay for tuition

Free higher education would be a thing of the past in an independent scotland. That is for certain.