Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

At one point a bloke asked what currency Scotland were going to use 'the groat? and the audience laughed. She dived straight in 'I would warn you that lots of Scottish people are watching this and they won't take too kindly that you are taking the piss' (obviously not those words but that was the message) and the audience were all duly chastised

Joanna Cherry QC. She was a trainee in a firm I worked in. I used to think she was quite sensible, the politics seems to be relatively recent.

I didn't see the programme (couldn't bear it) Not sure why she should get her knickers in a twist about mentioning the groat- goodness know it came up often enough in 2014 as being about as plausible as keeping the pound. I suggested we might end up using the groat.

Well of course I know why she did it -it's yet another example of the SNP peddling this myth that Scotland is so hard done by. "Them ooh poor we us,those nasty Unionists keep telling us, we're nae good; but we are; we are." Stamp foot.

I do wonder outside legal , historic and numismatic circles just how well the groat is known.

I did catch some sanctimonious plonker going on about it wasn't up to English people to speak for Scottish people.

[Fontella]

cool calm and collected

classy, dignified etc. etc.

Actually I'm just reading a few tweets about the other panellists and they are really funny.

There's one with a picture of the Wetherspoons guy and it says

"It's a shame to see how Geert Wilders has let himself go since his defeat last night"

[Bejazzled]

Haha he was a total fanny, it was a bit of a tumbleweed moment. He tried to assign being Scottish as a protected characteristic aligned with racism and woman's equal rights. Sitting there with his wee faux Palestinian tied scarf and tiny round spectacles. I feel sorry for him.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

faux offence to be taken

Oh goodness yes. And faux incredulity too.

My husband's brother has been a raving Nat since his teens, his whole family is indoctrinated. Fortunately we barely see them.

First time I met him I got faux incredulity about how did I have the accent I have if I'm from the North East?

[Fontella]

I did catch some sanctimonious plonker going on about it wasn't up to English people to speak for Scottish people.

Yes, the young fella had obviously rehearsed that line and couldn't wait to say it, but it did sound a bit shit. I think he thought it was going to come across all profound, but it just sounded lame.

[MintChocAddict]

Yep think I was watching a different question time too!
Can't believe (well I can!) that she trotted out the old free prescriptions shite when pressed on Scottish health outcomes. Talk about deflecting the question.
Yes I contine to be delighted that some rich folk in leafy parts of Scotland pay nothing for prescriptions and their kids get free uni tuition while schools go to shit, attainment goes down and the poverty gap increases. Teachers using their own cash for pencils and paper and ASN providion slashed.
Bloody marvellous policies policies and well thought out use of the public purse! Give yourself a pat on the back Joanna.

[Bejazzled]

Exactly mint

I've never quite reconciled the fact she referred to Ruth Davidson as a dyke, but hey it was just banter 🙁

[MintChocAddict]

I didn't know that!

Nice.

[NoLotteryWinYet]

Wow that's bad re the dyke comment. This is the problem with the SNP they are excellent modern politicians, all over social media and utterly lacking in any attempt to say difficult things because they know most of the voters will not understand it, so everything precooked to plausible, tweetable sound bites and they never miss an opportunity to trot out their tweet-bites. They are the cynical ones, thet don't even engage with debates at a deep level. Economy 'Scotland is creative and has resources' - ok then.

Yes don't get me started about the free dental check ups, free prescriptions and free tuition - who goes to university? The middle classes, overwhelmingly. The poor kids can't even get enough highers.

Was too busy watching Last Kingdom will check out QT

[NoLotteryWinYet]

Really the no campaign has to reduce its message down to a set of key tweets too, and add any pesky important detail afterwards. The problem with message style politics is you end up with a series of assertions on either side not a proper debate.

[Iggi999]

He tried to assign being Scottish as a protected characteristic aligned with racism and woman's equal rights
I didn't hear this nor know who it refers to, but being Scottish is protected as a nationality under the Equality act. So is being English.

[cdtaylornats]

being Scottish is protected as a nationality under the Equality act

And what precisely does that mean?

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

This is the problem with the SNP they are excellent modern politicians, all over social media and utterly lacking in any attempt to say difficult things because they know most of the voters will not understand it, so everything precooked to plausible, tweetable sound bites and they never miss an opportunity to trot out their tweet-bites.

Totally agree, and I'm sure this is how they've managed to maintain the level of support that they have, given their dismal record. They are indeed masters of spin.

I remember that manufactured spat in the House of Commons during the Brexit debate, where Joanna Cherry gained permission to make an additional comment (it was only suppose to be a 2 minute slot) then stood up to give a full address. She was shut down, then Alex Salmond starts raving about Scotland's voice being silenced, shouting at the speaker and refusing to sit down! Joanna Cherry then gives a long speech in her allotted slot, during which she claims she was prevented from speaking! Another MP finds this so outrageous that he asks for the record to be corrected, and the deputy speaker on duty says that she assumes the point was a rhetorical one rather than an arithmetical one as JC has in fact had plenty of opportunity to speak in interventions and during her speech. Still, it provided a nice little video clip for the SNP followers to share, proving that nasty Westminster won't let Scotland's representatives speak. A counter claim that actually it was a matter of process and the SNP had plenty of opportunity to speak in the debate as a whole isn't quite so catchy.

[Nyx]

You're all going on about SNP politicians being well rehearsed and incredibly slick etc (I think they are impressive myself) as if it is a bad thing. I expect you prefer your politicians to not know what they're talking about. Like Kezia and even Davis. Your jealousy is showing
Also, how is she a brass-necked lying cow (or whatever charming epithet was used, am on my phone) for pointing out that the NHS in Scotland is performing better? It is.

And i was poor and got loads of higher and went to uni, thanks. Which I absolutely wouldn't have done if I'd had to pay for tuition.

[QueenLaBeefah]

It is all about presentation and spin. Extremely similar to how Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson handled things. Eventually people tire of it and stop listening to the message and start seeing the gross incompetence (NHS, education, police, farm payments etc).

There is a reason why 170000 people have signed the petition against another referendum and only 20000 have signed the pro referendum petition.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

He tried to assign being Scottish as a protected characteristic aligned with racism and woman's equal rights
I didn't hear this nor know who it refers to, but being Scottish is protected as a nationality under the Equality act. So is being English

Oh don't be ridiculous. The Equality Act has absolutely nothing to do with this. This affects people living in Scotland, not those identifying as Scottish. The break up of the UK affects the whole of the UK.

[BakeOffBiscuits]

What happens if she just goes ahead and holds a ref, I think she'll do that!

[SpringyFlowery]

Saw Question Time last night with Joanna Cherry QC MP ( hope i got that right, would hate to offend) and Alex Salmond earlier on rolling news being interviewed in the HoP.

They are slick. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Salmond used the expression "every self - respecting Scot.."

It's psychological and they are good at it.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

What happens if she just goes ahead and holds a ref,

Assuming May didn't send in tanks, it would be held and the result would be advisory not legally binding I'd guess (as with Brexit), but politically very hard to ignore.

[BakeOffBiscuits]

So NS can do whatever she likes then and she knows it.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

I just watched a clip of Joanna Cherry on QT last night, and it's clear that the man who mentioned the Groat wasn't trying to offend Scots. He looked a bit bemused when the camera panned back to him. But given that Joanna Cherry seemed to flounder at the question before suggesting that it was offensive (when it clearly isn't) I think it was an attempt to deflect from the fact that she didn't have a sensible answer. Sadly, it seems to have worked to an extent.

I think the comparison to the Blair years is spot on - this is exactly what it reminds me of. I was a young twenty-something when he rose to power and I thought he was the second coming who would save us all from the Tories (young and naive..) and I've never felt so let down by anyone as I did by Tony Blair when the scales fell from my eyes. Now I listen to more carefully to what is actually being said (and not said), and how true this actually is, and pay less attention to soundbites. I hope the young generation currently so enthralled with the SNP and their hollow soundbites will come to a similar realisation and hold them to account properly.

[Nyx]

If there is a referendum and Yes wins, it would be 'the will of the people' which TM pays a lot of attention to.

Unless they are people in Scotland, obviously

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

So NS can do whatever she likes then and she knows it.

Well, no. As so many people on this thread have indicated there is no way the Scots will vote for independence. If folk don't vote for independence then it won't happen this time

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

Who will pay for this referendum that has no legal standing? Who will be running Scotland, with all the massive problems within its remit that urgently need attention, when the Scottish government is devoting itself to campaigning for independence? And if Westminster hasn't agreed to the timing, they won't be campaigning while the SNP will, so how can it possibly be a fair or meaningful result?

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Who will pay for this referendum that has no legal standing?

The Scottish Government

Who will be running Scotland, with all the massive problems within its remit that urgently need attention, when the Scottish government is devoting itself to campaigning for independence?

I'm pretty sure governments can multitask.

And if Westminster hasn't agreed to the timing, they won't be campaigning while the SNP will, so how can it possibly be a fair or meaningful result?

That would be Westminster's choice. And I presume that Scottish Conservatives / Labour / Lib Dems would be campaigning against - you are forgetting that Scotland isn't actually a one party state...