Husband doesn’t think he’s done anything wrong, has he or should I move on?

[Anon1234567891]

I should say there is a long backstory to this that I have posted about before but I will try to summarise.
Last year I became unhappy about my DH closeness to a female colleague (going out just the 2 of them, the cinema story if anyone remembers) and doing things for her, like helping her move when she split with her husband. I asked if I could see their messages but he wouldn’t show me which made me more suspicious. I later looked at his work phone, which I know was probably wrong but found some flirty messages, I then told him I wanted to see his personal phone messages which he got angry about but showed. There wasn’t anything directly bad but a lot more than I realised and I didn’t like the timing of them.
We eventually sort of moved on as he said he would take a step back and not go out with her any more but wouldn’t ignore her and say he was busy so couldn’t go out.

I know it was probably wrong of me but I checked his phone again a few months later as I wanted to see if he was telling the truth. I found he had bought her a birthday present and not told me as well as some other things he’d done for her.

I was angry but didn’t confront him as I was worried about his reaction. I made enquiries about divorce and universal credit.
He has now found that email and was upset about it. We had a calm conversation about it, I tried to explain to him that by buying her a birthday present after telling me he had taken a step back and hiding it from me felt like he was prioritising her feelings over mine. He must have known I wouldn’t be happy but chose to do something to make her happy instead. Also if he hid this what else might he hid. There are other things he’s done for her as well, some of which he deleted the messages. He didn’t really have an explanation for buying it, and didn’t seem to think he had done anything wrong. He thinks I’m muzzling him from doing what he wants. Which I suppose I am but he told me he’d taken a step back then does this. How am I supposed to trust him without any accountability? I know there are faults on both sides.

sorry it’s long. I don’t know if couples counselling would help.

I feel so very sad for you @Anon1234567891 you don’t have to live this way. You are living with some very tiny glimmer of hope that this man might ‘realise’ how much he’s hurting you, and stop hurting you.
But he’s not going to. And you are coming on here asking for advice - that’s fine, it’s what MN is for. Over time the majority of posters have said the same - he is treating you appallingly and he is getting away with it.
Then you are thinking a counsellor might step in. Even if he did go, even if he played the game, he won’t change.
The way he is behaving is who is in the relationship now. He may not have always been this way, but he is now.
The biggest killer of any relationship is one partner treating the other with contempt and it’s what this man is doing to you.
He does not care that you are spending hours and days upset, trying to analyse what’s happening and why he’s doing it and if you are to blame in any way.
You are not to blame in any way for what he’s done - he will not let this woman go and the trust is broken.
Sometimes you have to face reality and so many of us on here have had to. It’s not about looking for answers about him it’s about you now.
If nothing changes, nothing changes.
You deserve better than how is treating you but now you deserve better than how you are allowing him to treat you.
We all want to be loved and for many of us means a life partner to share our journey with. But the sheer desperation to hang on to any feeling of love and fear of being alone leads to many of us allowing awful treatment.
I did. I am probably old enough to be your mum but upon hitting rock bottom I realised I could only change myself.
There are an army of women on here who have been where you are now and when they’ve decided it’s done, no more, and they act and take control there are stormy times ahead but once through it, the freedom and peace are worth it.
You are worth it.
You are a lovely person who deserves a partner who takes her to the cinema, who makes a fuss of her on her birthday, who can be trusted at work, on his phone, and how he behaves when she is not around.
The loneliest place in the world is where you are right now and the stress it is causing you will impact your physical health, too.
We all know it’s so tough but if you stay this man will grind you down until you are a shell. That’s not love, its not even indifference, it is emotional abuse.
You get gifted one life it is precious. Start treating that gift, and you, with care.

So he doesn't think he has done anything wrong.
So what.
Who cares what he thinks or how he justifies things to himself.

The point is that you are not happy with what he has done.
You can't make him agree with you, and it really doesn't matter if he doesn't agree with you because the relationship is dead anyway.
You can't change his thinking.
You can't "make him see" and save the marriage.

All you can do is decide that you have had enough and divorce him.

There are no right words to make him see. A marriage counselor won't sit in judgement and make him see.

What you're asking for is empathy and he has none for you. His emotional connection is to the OW, not you. He buys her gifts, he goes to her for emotional connection and support and validation. He has contempt for you and that's a marriage killer. He stonewalls you and that's another marriage killer. He's checked out of your marriage. He may be there physically but not emotionally.

I didn’t see your old thread but just from this one I can see that this man has no respect for you or your marriage.

I know it seems daunting but please continue with your research into divorce and UC so that you have all the info you need to start an independent life without this lying sleazeball in your life.

I know ideally you want him to forget about Miss NoKnickers but it’s clear that a year later that’s not happening. What is happening is that she’s preparing to live alone, conveniently making space for your H to stay over. Don’t wait for that, for the ‘business trips’ or ‘lads nights that went on too long so he stayed on Dave’s sofa’. Find your dignity and your self esteem and tell him to fuck off.

Worst case scenario he leaves and he ends up moving in with her and it breaks your heart but you don’t have to worry about what he’s up to anymore, you build a good life for yourself, surround yourself with friends and family, a couple of years down the line you maybe tentatively try dating and in the meantime you work on your boundaries so you don’t accept being taken for a mug by another man.

Best case scenario he isn’t having an actual affair with her. He moves out on his own and has a think about what a shitshow he’s made of all this. He realises hes treated you appallingly, he actually doesn’t want to divorce and should have begged you to stay and cut contact with her instead of saying he wasn’t going to beg you. He realises you have high standards and if he wants to be with you he needs to step up and be the husband you deserve. He sorts out his own issues and need for validation while you work on yours, in time the two repair your marriage from the ground up, not just papering over the cracks. He’s only allowed back in the family home when he’s demonstrated that he deserves it and can be trusted.

FWIW by that point you will hopefully not want him back, but if it helps you to take the space away from him without feeling like you’re pushing him into her arms, focus on that scenario. Scenario one is much more likely sadly, but two isn’t out of the realms of reality.

Either way. Him staying in the family home won’t do anything. He has is cake and is eating it at the moment. My money is on the fact that he’s biding his time until she’s free and he can leap without being homeless. Don’t let him.

He may not have had sex with her, but he is having an emotional affair proved by the secret messages and meet ups. That's inappropriate when he's married.

OP, he's having an affair and he hasn't stopped because he doesn't want to. I'm sorry this has happened to you.

Counselling won't make any difference.
He knows exactly what he is doing and doesn't care.
He hasn't an ounce of respect for you.
I'm so sorry but your marriage is over.

Protect yourself as best you can.

I think you have to be selfish. As selfish as he has been. Think about yourself and make plans to protect yourself, your mental and physical health. Easy for us all to say but that probably means taking steps for a life without him. All the best.

Oh OP,
This won’t get any better. There’s a very similar thread on here which I’ve just posted on. I’m going to post you the same point….
Name changed for this. I found out that my husband was having an emotional affair- with his ex affair partner from his first marriage. I hadn’t known that he’d had an affair, didn’t do my due diligence I suppose. He told me that he’d put a stop to it, etc, etc, but what he actually did was tell the OW that they would ‘have to be more circumspect’. He never did put a stop to it. I found all this out years later when he developed dementia.
OP, only you know your husband but I wish I’d made the decision to finish with mine at that point. I’m now his carer.

"I found all this out years later when he developed dementia.
OP, only you know your husband but I wish I’d made the decision to finish with mine at that point. I’m now his carer."

You are a saint. 😇

Thank you ❤️

Leave him then.
If his present triggers you.
Simple..why all the posts if theres a history.
A lawyer and a end of it.
Some of us do have male friends but in here that is deemed wrong in tbe real world males make good friends so if you can control a humans choices leave.
I dont see it as bad i see it as the end.

Just been to the counselling. He very much painted himself as the one that wants to make it work and I’m the emotional one. Playing everything down as not thinking it was a big deal. The counsellor asked if there was anything romantic and he said no, which of course he would. She didn’t seem to think the present was a big deal but then doesn’t know the context of everything before. I remember a friend saying her husband charmed the counsellor when they went.

What do you actually want @Anon1234567891 ?
In your own mind.
Not from him.

OP he knows he has done something wrong.

You really need to stop treating this like something he just doesn't understand. He DOES understand.
He DOES think it's ok to treat you like this.

I think you are doomed if you are having feelings he’s charming the councillor. It’s slightly different than he didn’t understand or the councilling isn’t working. He’s not there trying to fix a problem he’s there trying to gaslight you by denying the problem.

Yes she’s such a good friend that she goes to the cinema with no knickers on. Would you think that’s ok? 🤔

OP, he continues to show you how little he values you and your relationship.

I think you need to start believing him.

I’m really sorry.

Hi OP,

I remember your thread, and I have read all of your updates.

I'm sorry but I think he is playing you. I think he cares for her and doesn't want to stop it.

I think he plays the fool when he explains to you that you have different understandings of right and wrong.

Whose husband has a side piece like this and it's OK?? She is his side piece! He has an intimate emotional connection with someone else, who he messages day and night, even when on holiday.

Why is he staying with you? Do you facilitate him having a nicer life?

There is no way in HELL I would stay with a man who has such a close relationship with another woman - where they have discussed knickers at the cinema, and shared pictures of beds. This is way over the line.

Stop the counselling and leave him, I would. I'm sorry. You should be the light of his life. What man who loves his wife wants to text another woman all day?

To be fair the messages weren’t all the time but why do they need to be at all when you’re with your family. He says that we were on our phones but I’m quite sure that on some of these occasions we weren’t and that is different to messaging OW.
I felt like the counsellor was taking his side, although I know it’s not about taking sides.

@Anon1234567891 I feel you have given him another platform to gaslight you. Have you mentioned the inappropriate knickers text and your husband continuous texting on holiday was excessive and very telling. He needs constant contact with her.

Challenge your husband in these sessions. What are the examples of him “trying” . Why is this friendship more important that your marriage and children? Why are her feelings more important than yours? Why did he agree to curtail contact then hide it? Did you mention the flowers on the day he was arranging her gift? How can he explain it?

Does he do anything nice for you @Anon1234567891 ? Is he still affectionate? Can you feel anything has changed when you are intimate ( if you are still intimate)?

The cinema trips etc I re orig thread.
That's dating bet before this started he wouldn't be happy if you had outing with a male "friend"

Sorry but I dont understand why the counsellor felt the need to down play the birthday gift as not a big deal.. they should have explored the meaning behind the gift and the fact he is forgetful with special dates etc and double checked her date given the fact of their previous encounters.

I feel like being detached from him and slowly making your exit plan and funds is the best way forward. I hate looking back on events and messages to see I had been taken for an idiot or that someone was blatantly showing me how much they didnt care however reading all your thread there are just too many incidents where it feels like he's doing this and playing in your face/making out its not really happening or an issue. If he cared he would honestly cut it out and put your concerns first. Your mental health and anxiety will only worsen with time if this scenario continues.

Care more for your self respect and mental health because he clearly doesnt. That's what I told myself when I walked away from my child's father she was only 5 months old but I just refused to stay with someone who blatantly didn't care. You shouldn't have to keep asking for the bare min which is respect for you, your marriage etc. Do you think he would put up or appreciate this if the shoe was on the other foot? He would be long gone!

Besides the other woman doesn't seem to have much to lose, she knows hes married to you but doesnt careless either...id leave them to it and get out while you can and get all that you can because this man and his antics will drive you crazy. He not worth your time, tears or headache!

I think this really sums it up.

There must be a reason why he wants you to keep believing that he's entirely innocent and that such behaviour has never even crossed his mind and that everything is above board.

He must be quite skilled at this if the counsellor seemed taken in by him.

And all this pretence that it's all beyond his comprehension, that you are imagining things, he's sadly misunderstood by a suspicious wife. Fuck that.

Write all the facts you actually know down...
without listening to the gas lighting that has been implanted in your head because it does sound like you really don't trust yourself anymore.
Date it. Itemise it.
Then think about how far his "explanations" match that string of "co-incidences"

In small claims cases... you don't have to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt, you just have to prove that the evidence points to what is likely to have happened. So work out what seems a wildly outlandish and unlikely leap on your part and what seems like a likely probability.

Also add in, not just what appears to be happening, but what is not happening. How has his behaviour towards you changed. The constant texting on family days out is appalling. He literally thinks he can do that whilst still getting you to believe nothing is going on. He is well aware that you are suspicious and unhappy, so that is odd behaviour if he's really trying to lull your suspicions. He said he wouldn't beg you to stay. That's how much he wants to fight for the marriage. I'd put that on the list.

Go to a different counsellor on your own. He will continue to gaslight you via the counsellor otherwise.
The OW has split from her other half and has moved into her own place.
How is that going to affect their relationship? and yours?

It must be such stress and such hard work for him to keep denying this is happening. At this stage it would be easier just to admit it.
Ultimately, you have to start thinking about what would be best for you, the constant turmoil you are going through at the moment sounds unbearable. its all focused on him, what he's doing to do. Please start putting yourself first and thinking about what you want out of life and whether he still fits into that picture. So sorry you are going through this @Anon1234567891 x