August 2026 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have started a new thread as the other one is now full.

@AttilaTheMeerkat That's very useful, thank you. Do you happen to have any more details for the organisation you mention- when I google that it seems to bring up a youth suicide prevention organisation so I assume there must be several organisations with similar names.
I think it's really hard in families like ours to understand how to handle these things because we've had a lifetime of being told we should keep things within the family and we're selfish if we object to indulging the Golden Child. Even though logically I know what's happening is wrong I really do worry that anyone 'official' will believe GB2s version of events. I also think Mum's so used to sacrificing herself to save him that putting up with discomfort to try to keep GB2 happy is just normal to her.
I did speak up in one of Mum's medical appointments and told the HCP she's been sleeping on a sofa for months with no real plan for an alternative. But Mum has brushed it off as 'just what we had to do in an emergency' until they can all move to Mum's bigger house. They did suggest looking at assisted living accommodation but of course Mum just repeats the line that 'I don't want that and my son is the only one who will look after me.' Which seems to sort of give him a 'get out of jail free' card as his stance is always 'It's really hard for me, but I'm just trying to do what Mum wants.' I suspect GB2s partner may not be as keen as he seems to move in to Mum's house permanently- hence the delay.

https://www.wearehourglass.org

So very sorry about that wellies. Should have written Hourglass. The link is above for you.

( Have been reading about the good work that do recently and got mixed up).

@AttilaTheMeerkat Thank you- that's really useful

@Spendysis you're misunderstanding how POA works.

POA doesn't get registered on a bank account, it is registered for a person.

So your sister has POA for finances (and health?) but is not using that authority to gain consent from the bank to access DM money, because DM has given permission for your sister to do so and also given access to bank card, PIN number, online banking password etc. Hence the bank being unaware of the POA.

Your sister hasn't needed to invoke her POA to access the money - because either:
DM has been manipulated into handing over her details and money,
OR
DM willingly did this because she favours your sister and is happy for her to have all her money as a sort of early inheritance, before she's actually dead.
Depends how you look upon it.

OPG/SS are looking upon it that whatever permissions has been given in the past, DM is currently mentally incapable of giving permission in the present day. Meaning that whether your sister needed to force access to bank accounts by using POA document or not, the fact remains that due to DMs mental incompetence your sister is currently legally acting under POA laws. Except - she isn't. She's abusing those laws and therefore by definition she's financially abusing DM. This is because sister is not using the money for DMs best interests, she's using it for her own best interests, which is illegal because it's not her money. This is what OPG/SS are seeking to stop by removing your sister from the POA document and transferring POA to DM's SW/SS dept (I'm not entirely sure of the exact details of how it works when the state has control over someone's finances).

You've done nothing wrong and you haven't misinterpreted instructions from OPG. They've suggested that you inform the bank and the care home what's going on, so that both those organisations can implement whatever protective measures they have available for preventing their clients from abuse/fraud. Because your sister isn't likely to inform them herself that she's under investigation for those crimes. So if nobody tells them, they won't know there's a problem. Your DM social worker could also have done this, but obviously that adds to their workload and OPG knows you're invested in your DM welfare otherwise you wouldn't have even bothered bringing what your sister was doing to their attention and trying to get her stopped. So they've naturally assumed you might be happy to help by doing this other task of informing bank and care home.

So you've discovered the bank didn't know about your sister having POA and you've told them. This is good because now they know. Now they're raising their own internal fraud investigations, I would think. Because that's what it is when someone is wrongly accessing someone else's bank account.

The fact your sister hasn't informed them of the POA and is accessing the accounts on the sly, initially with DM permission, won't go in her favour. Nor will it look good on her that OPG are so concerned with her behaviour around the use of the money, that they (OPG) have decided she's not complying with the POA laws and are seeking to remove that power from her.

I wouldn't be surprised if the bank freeze DM accounts until this is sorted, as a fraud prevention measure.

They also need to establish what fraud has already occurred, if any, (it has but they can't take your word for it they need evidence, so they're investigating).

Then the bank will need to work out if they'd taken all the measures they could to prevent fraud, or if they didn't do that and they're liable to refund DM some of the money (that's been stolen by your sister) themselves. I don't think they'll be liable for this because DM initially gave your sister permission and means to access the accounts, when she did have mental capacity to do so.

The bank may also have to see if they can recover any of the money that's been stolen by your sister and return it to DM's account. I've no idea really if they'll have any luck with this. I don't think they'll get anything back from your sister because she hasn't got a pot to piss in and has spent any money she took. Whether they can get it back from any shops or businesses it's been spent at, I don't know. That probably comes down to whether it can be proved that these purchases were purely for your sister's benefit or not, and obviously whether or not there's a paper trail of the money going to X or Y place. If she took it all out as cash and nobody knows where it's gone then I don't think the bank will be able to recover any of it.

It's the bank's duty to help their client if the client has been defrauded and to help prevent fraud occurring in the first place, that's why they're looking into all this and asking you questions as part of their investigation.

Is she being abused though @formalwellies? She sounds like she’s as much a part of the system as he is. Can you not just walk away from the whole situation?

So I think it may be possible that even though she has POA registered with the OPG, it's not formally registered with her bank.

Yes this is it, in a nutshell. Legally it should have been registered with the bank, by the sister, but she hasn't done that. Because she already had access to the money anyway and because she's not a person who's interested in complying with the law.

But if that's the case, and she's just been accessing funds as if she was your Mum, surely that's a simple case of fraud?

Not necessarily.

It's a similar situation to if you gave your bank card to your boyfriend, told him the PIN, said he could have £50 for his birthday...and then he went and took £500 out.

You can report him to the police, but he'd deny it and claim he had permission to take the money. You wouldn't be able to prove you'd only said £50 not £500.

You can report him to the bank claiming fraud, they'd tell you to get lost because you have to do your best to prevent fraud yourself and if you're willingly giving someone your bank card and PIN then you're not complying with that fraud prevention rule. The bank wouldn't refund you or seek to recover the money, they'd say the situation is your fault and they're not liable. They'd done what they could to prevent fraud when they told you never to let anyone else use your card or give anyone else your PIN.

Spendysis's DM is in this position. She willingly and with mental capacity gave access to her bank account. That's why the bank initially told spendysis to sod off it's a civil matter, when she tried to report it. The point where it gets messy is that the DM subsequently lost mental capacity and was diagnosed with a mental impairment. The sister had POA, so when mental capacity was lost the POA takes effect. That is the point at which fraud may have occurred.

Of course fraud may have occurred earlier, if the DM was manipulated or coerced or threatened into handing over control of her bank account whilst she had capacity, but proving that is likely to be impossible. Especially when all along the DM herself has said there's been no coercion and has stated to everyone who asked that she did it willingly.

mustigo you can obtain a copy of someone's will yourself after they're dead. It can be done online. There's no legal requirements for the executor to provide anyone a copy of the will. If the executor has the original that's their copy and they don't have to give it to, or show it to, anyone else.

This is the million dollar question isn't it. Without the dementia I'd say it's just a case of them both continuing the same dysfunctional patterns they've been performing for decades. The dementia adds another layer to it. Mum is now definitely vulnerable and could not manage on her own but also has very reduced cognitive abilities (even if probably currently not so much that legally she'd be deemed as not having capacity). GB2 is taking advantage of this by persuading her that anything he doesn't want her to do (eg external help/social activities) will be scary and that everything will be fine if she does what he says. It's absolutely not the first time he's used emotional blackmail and fear to persuade her to do things that are not in her own best interests. But is it different now that her ability to weigh up the decisions she's making is impaired is this different? Logically I think I should just leave them to it, but I can't help thinking that given her condition I really should at least try to stop them covering up what's happening. I wish I had an answer I was confident I wouldn't regret.

She is still alive but auntie and narc h have been POA a long time and it would have been done by them. They already sold house and placed in care home. There will be nothing. It’s not the point though, it’s the toxicity of it all. I have nothing to do with it or my brother, all the toxicity can die with them. My Nan caused this also, she played the daughters.

Your mums illness is horrible but it doesn’t change who she was as a human. She caused this long ago, her son is a reflection on her parenting. I think perhaps you see a vulnerable ill person being taken advantage of but he is just her, it was always was going to be this way. It’s all playing out as it should but I would worry that you get taken down with it. I would let the ship sink and stay well away because it was all written a long time ago. You have managed to write a different story, I would not let this anywhere near you.

wellies the only other thing you can do, if you have the information of the holiday dates and the social worker contact details, is to pass that information on along with a concern that DM will be left alone in the house at this time. I note how you're already referring to it as "his place". Isn't it her place? Although I know he's trying to take over. Either way, you can tell the social worker that she doesn't have a bedroom or a bed. If that's found to be true they definitely won't be happy about that. Other than that you've done all you can and can only step back and save yourself. DM wants a relationship with her son, any kind of relationship, rather than having her needs met. That's her choice. You're not being selfish you're safeguarding yourself, as you should be. You're a person, not a sacrificial lamb. Everything is not about DM. You deserve safety and wellbeing too and to put your own nuclear family at the centre of your life instead of your FOO.

Cherry whatever you decide to do (I'd drop the rope and walk away) don't ever give them your address. That's putting your family at risk again and if you own the house you can't easily move to escape your FOO if their behaviour gets too awful to bear.

She has created a monster by all sounds of it. You reap what you sow. I would stay well away, bad fruit doesn’t turn good in the presence of a healthy fruit, it rots all that’s around it. It’s all lost. I know we all feel we can fix these things or outsmart them but we really can’t. These seeds were planted long before us, it’s not ours to fix but to run from. Simply knowing what they are doing or worrying already impacts our thoughts and behaviours in a negative way.

@SamAndAnnie When I refer to 'his place' it's because currently she is staying at his house, where she has been sleeping on the sofa for months since she decided she was too scared to be on her own at night. This was done as an emergency measure (she was trying to stay awake all night, calling us both repeatedly and threatening to knock on neighbours' doors in the middle of the night looking for help) so understandable. I have said since then that she needs some form of assisted living/residential care so she's not alone at night but we can also live our lives. Their plan is for GB2 (plus his wife and child) to Mum's place which is in the same town but big enough for everyone to have a bedroom. There is no real answer to why this has not happened (it's been almost a year) so I can only assume his wife is not keen and/or they want to make sure they have her will changed so it will be theirs when she dies before they move. Plus GB2 will never actually DO anything unless pushed, or someone else basically does it for him. If the unsuitable living arrangements are ever mentioned they all say it's just until 'everything is sorted out' for the move and act as though it's only been a few weeks.
I am refusing to centre their insanity and am putting my DH and DC first, which is making GB2 incredibly angry. From lots of the conversations we had when it first became clear Mum was unwell, I'm certain he assumed that I would essentially take her place as his support human- looking after Mum as well as helping him with childcare etc that Mum had been doing. I'm sure that if I'd gone along with that, and agreed with his 'Mum must never have paid care' mantra he would have played nice for a while but found some other way to try to get his hands on Mum's house. I suspect his Plan A was to look for sympathy and hope I'd agree to anything he asked for, but now he's having to used Plan B (aggression and underhandedness).

Probably protecting his inheritance, care would wipe this out.

wellies I'll bet wife is vetoing a move because she must know she's going to end up default carer if that happens. Madness though, definitely time for DM to be in a home. But she's made her choices, nothing you can do really.

@SamAndAnnie I think you're right. I think the only thing I can do now is keep an eye on Mum but focus on preventing me and my DH/DC being dragged in to facilitating the insanity. I won't be lying about or sugar coating the reality of Mum's living situation and GB2s attitude towards me (eg when HCP ask about Mum's care or when old friends and extended family ask) but I think I have to accept that as so many of you have said this is a situation created by them over a lifetime so I can't change it now and don't have to try.
Sticking to my boundaries is annoying and confusing GB2. It goes against his understanding of how the world works. This is the first time that he has ever experienced having to deal with the consequences of his own decisions and actions. His experience up to now is that he can do exactly as he pleases (no matter how foolish/dangerous/unacceptable that is generally considered to be) then when the inevitable consequences happen he just needs to stamp his feet and play the victim and someone (usually our parents) will come in and sort everything out whilst telling him and everyone around what a brave/clever boy he is and pandering to his every whim to avoid 'upsetting' him after such a difficult time.

Good luck to him when he looses this scaffolding and enabling of his parent! I wonder what happens to them when they do loose the narc parent? Who do they have to approve them and enable them then? Most other people can’t be bothered with them.

I was wondering why some very obvious narc relationships seem to be successful. Why I couldn’t gel with my ex but another can. My ex is openly a narc, several failed very volatile relationships so I am fully assure what he is. But why did I have such a hard time. I think they need a certain kind of also insecure and damaged person whose morals can be persuaded to shift. Two envious and insecure people can form a joint successful venture. My daughter has told me that his gf is very insecure and jealous (literally of my own daughter because her dad gives her attention). I am not a jealous person and I certainly don’t envy people as I know all is never how it seems. I was never interested in looking better than anyone. This must have been the reason we just didn’t work and I had a hard time with him. I think perhaps they try and push you to ignore your moral compass and if you damaged somehow they can play with your morals and twist them for their own needs.

@MustIgo In GB2s case he fully expects there to be someone (or a collection of people) else to take the place of the enabling/enmeshed parent. He clearly had me down as a replacement and I have a suspicion he's won't entirely give up on that whilst we have any contact at all. He also has his wife. I think it's clear that he's expected any partner he ever had to take a similar role to our parents. He split up with his previous partner (and called her a gold digger etc) because she didn't want him to move in with her unless he could pay his way. She was a single parent who worked really hard to give her family a nice home etc and he expected her to welcome him to move in and pay for nothing. His argument was that she knew he was 'taking some time to plan his career' and he often bought them all take-away when he was over so it wasn't like it would actually cost him anything. His current wife works longer hours than him but does all the housework/washing/daily cooking etc. There is a long list of household jobs that he claims he just doesn't know how to do/can't do as well as her/would just mess up etc and a huge fuss made of the one or 2 things he does do. So far she seems to have completely bought the idea that he is some sort of genius who can't be expected to mundane tasks, and the idea that the chaos that always seems to surround him is everyone else's fault and he's the victim/hero trying to get through it and save everyone.
You raised some questions about why these people seem to have a very difficult relationship with some people but appear to have a relationship that works with others. I think it all comes down to how the other person reacts to them. If they always give them the reaction they want everything can seem, on the surface, fine. I think some narcissists learn over time to spot traits than mean people are more likely to give them the reaction the want, as well as how to groom someone to comply.

In all my encounters with narcs what has always shone through is the envy and the jealousy. It’s appeared pathological and not even real. It’s always been a part of my relationships with narcs, with my ex and with my MIL and the BIL. They are driven by it and they create it and then use it. I think as a partner it’s probably quite easy to get drawn into this. I know my ex used this with me and he uses this with his gf, a joint hate and envy of me. He finds out where we holiday and they then replicate it (but better). I suppose envy joins people in vendettas. They accuse others of it but it’s actually them creating and manipulating it. It’s like the curse of humans that we can so easily be manipulated with envy and jealousy.

The "successful" relationships I've seen where one is a narcissist and the other isn't, it works because the one who isn't decided the benefits of remaining in the relationship outweighs the negatives. You'd be amazed at the amount of people who simply aren't prepared to be single, ever. Or the ones who want money but don't really want to work/are too thick to have a career. If they do break up with someone they're in another relationship maximum two weeks later and they never instigate the split themselves without having someone lined up to go to who they're either in already, or pretty certain wants to be in, a relationship with them.

They never cross the narc, either out of fear of the consequences (because ultimately it's an abusive relationship full of at best coercive control, if not outright violence) or because they're actually a misogynist/mummy's boy themselves and believe their narc's opinion comes first. Right down to stuff like narcs car goes in the garage and do they get a train to work or a courtesy car? Hell no, they'll takes their partner's car and who cares if they have an impossibly long journey by public transport or has to call in sick? They'll do things like drive like maniacs, drink drive, speed everywhere and the partner will say nothing. The partner quietly picks up the slack at home and doesn't expect the narc to do chores, if they do they sees it as "helping them" and praises like mad for it as if it was a favour. In conversation with them the narc always leads and the partner says nothing or just the odd comment, usually something that backs up the narc's opinion. Never turn their narc down for sex to avoid the sulking and "having to make it up to them", easier to just do it in the first place. Watches the narc inconvenience or be rude to/about others, including friends and family, and says nothing or apologises on their behalf and makes excuses to minimise the behaviour. Drops others at the last minute, to come running when the narc snaps their fingers. This is all stuff I've witnessed, or been told, by others who appeared to be having successful relationships with people I could see weren't that nice or were obviously difficult and had I'm-the-boss energy. I didn't know the word narcissist back then.

Or it's like my relationship was, where so much of that wasn't put up with (or not without a fight) and there were constant rows at home, but people didn't see that, only saw the happy version of us out in public. I don't know how many of the partners of narcs are like me, raised by a narcissist to have no boundaries, didn't realise I was supposed to have any. So as an adult, attempting to have personal autonomy meant trying to persuade the narc to allow me to have it. In the end I even chose my jobs based on whether or not it would piss him off, with no understanding at the time that it wasn't my decision but something I was doing to avoid negative consequences and I was being controlled. There was no understanding that I already had personal autonomy as a right and didn't need anyone's permission or agreement. Keeps you trapped in a relationship trying to make things work, long after anyone emotionally healthy would have seen incompatibility at best, abusive control at worst, and walked away. I wouldn't say my relationship with a narcissist was successful, but it existed for a long time and it might have looked successful from the outside, to anyone except the few I vented to occasionally and asked advice when confused by some bad narc behaviour. I only left because I knew I got walked all over in life and started learning assertiveness, of course when I started practicing it all hell broke loose and behaviour occurred that even I could see was wrong/bad/shouldn't be happening.

@SamAndAnnie I absolutely picked the wrong word “successful”. I guess they are successful for the narcissist in that they managed to gain control, so they successfully controlled. You are right in what you say. I was like you and didn’t actually realise I didn’t have to do what I was being told. I remember him telling me I was the most useless wife because I didn’t make him lunch like all the other good wife’s did. I remember thinking fuck off and make your own lunch. The more I thought sod this the worse the threats got until he threatened to take me out and I realised he was horrible. I know in my BIL’s relationship the SIL is desperate to look like the perfect “housewife”, she has sacrificed everything. I don’t think she is fully aware, or more likely she likes the money he brings home so puts up with it because she has never worked. I know lots of people are proud of their family and want to be the best version of themselves but this seems to be ramped up 10 fold in narc relationships. It’s not just I’m a good mum, my family, my kids, my car etc are good it’s that they are the absolute best, better than you normal people.

Perhaps Im just changed but no way would I worship a man, give up everything, dote, make lunch boxes, be at home all the time for a grown man and his money. I paid for my own house. I guess there lies the problem, it’s the dependency and the level of power. Some people are trapped by becoming overly dependent. I owned my house and my ex tried to lower my input as human and told me I was nothing, I brought nothing to the table when I owned the table, the house! Bastard. He refused to leave and only left after a court order and lots of money…..that and he got a new gf and moved in with her.

Has anybody been able to make other family members aware of the narcissistic dynamic in their families? In particular, has anybody’s golden sibling ever become aware and looked at their own role?
It seems from what I read about all of your situations that it’s a lonely place to be if you’re the one who is aware, and that golden siblings just don’t want to know.
I am asking because I feel that I have painted myself into a corner so to speak. Golden sister no awareness or interest at all in anything psychological or emotional. If anything, she has become more entrenched in her golden sister role recently and it has become impossible to talk to her, literally. Other sister feels and sees that things are not right, but does only see the problems with mum’s behaviour, not with golden sister’s.
I am very reluctant to mention the terms narcissist etc to anyone in my family, because it has become such a buzzword, and it will only enforce their view of me as the mentally ill one.
It would make the whole family dynamic so clear, though, if they would look into narcissistic family systems. And part of me thinks it might help take away tensions within our family. But realistically I am deluded, aren’t I? It is just me who it would benefit, isn’t it?

Do you think that Narc women seem to have a problem more so with those the same sex? Men narcs seem different, overt, controlling and dominating (kind of men traits in general). Women seem to hate other women. My MIL only pushes out other women. There is me there is her step-mum, a SIL and all the other women are work employees. She has no issues with men or either of her sons or H (although she is the top of the family). She is threatened only by women.

Would they extend this envy onto their grandchildren? I’ve wondered why my MIL always promotes her grandchildren staying at home. My kids go to outside clubs, have friends, are confident and quite dramatic and creative. The oldest goes camping with cubs etc. The other grandkids she advices my SIL they are better off at home, they don’t need clubs? Why is she doing this? Is it because she is jealous or worried they might be confident females?