She insists it wasn't cheating, but it still really hurt and I am struggling move on. Help!

[BoldRobin]

I will try and keep this brief. We are currently "happy" and working on our marriage after both getting a taste of losing each other after separating for 2.5 months last year (her decision). Our marriage was complicated, financial infidelity on her part, and a lack of resolution at the time lead to conflict, depression (on her part) and we split. It only last just over 2 months before we eventually worked on things. It has been 6 months we have been "back together". I love her, she is the mother of my kids, my wife and we have been together for over 20 years. I never wanted the separation, she knew all the way through I was ready to work on things. I feel this is important...

When we had the talk about reconciling, I asked her "tell me nothing happened with anyone whilst we were apart" (she was going to friends parties etc) and she immediately confessed to getting drunk and snogging her friends brother at her friends party, just 3 nights prior. She said it was horrible, she instantly felt remorse and found it to just be happening after chatting to him at the bar for a minute or two. She says it was at the end of the night, she pulled away and that was that. She insists (she would) that it was 2 seconds of a mistake, was disgusting and that it "wasn't a long passionate kiss", and reminded me that "we weren't together".

My problems are as follows. Number 1, I can't get it out of my mind, even after 6 months, and things have been good. Is there something wrong with me? The way I see it, how could she? If she means what she says now and she never felt right apart, how could she do that? At the time I was looking after our children whilst she was doing this, heartbroken to put it bluntly. Secondly, I feel guilty for doubting it was "just a kiss". Her language I feel is pure minimalisation, and I dread something more happening. I dread it because it would destroy us, and I couldn't forgive it, so I have buried it due to lack of evidence, benefit of the doubt and a deep down disbelief in her ability to go that far, no matter how drunk.

What bothers me is how it happened? For two people to snog, they have to be close enough. What signals did she give? What did she say? What did he say? Did she really just walk away and carry on dancing with her friends after as she claims? Why tell me if it was "just a horrible 2 second thing" and we weren't together?

I am terrified she has been dishonest. Even if she hasn't it still hurts me to picture my wife kissing another guy like that, drunk or not. Do you think its cheating? I was emotionally invested in us, and she knows I was. She says it meant nothing and she thought we might never get back together. She admits to being ridiculous and wreckless in the moment and is remorseful.

She says she wants us to work and HAS made great effort in the relationship since we got back together, everything is really strong, its just this niggling thing. She says being apart made her realise how good we are and how theres so much worth fighting for. She tells me she loves me and never wants to separate again and has committed to better communication and effort.

Am I pathetic? Should I drop it? Should it matter? I need to stop ruminating. I don't want us to end, but I need the doubt to stop. Its hounding me.

Is my gut feeling that more happened (despite her insisting it didn't and "I wouldn't have done that so soon into a separation after 20 years, what do you take me for?!", or am I just struggling with trust after the financial infidelity and being dumped? I just feel like I am on shaky ground. I love the woman and I want it to work so badly.

I accept what you are saying, but in the same way it is so easy to label a man controlling and selfish because he has a problem in his marriage. Yes it's partly about me, of course it is. There are plenty of helpful comments here, but a good few that come across bitter, petty and resentful.

I believed it was over because she just completely shut down and would not engage with me. I had to move out quickly to get to spend time with my children. She just went absolutely cold. I knew something deeper was wrong, it had been building for months. I touched on the subject of me not wanting either of us to do anything that might jeopardise us getting together should that happen, and she told me I was being smothering. I felt I had a right to that expectation, at least that early on in the separation after 20 years. I pulled away and stopped contacting her at all. Feared she would do something stupid. She did. But I'm controlling and an angry man for taking issue with such stupidity.

Have you called her stupid, in relation to this?

Because she made a decision she regrets. It doesn't make it "stupidity". And she made that decision while believing her marriage was over and while you were not in contact at all.

It strikes me that you had different expectations going into the separation - your expectation was not to do anything that might jeopardise getting back together and hers was to full separate and not be ‘smothered.’ I suspect she felt she could do what she wanted. So perhaps, from her perspective, it really didn’t mean anything.

I don’t think you’re controlling or angry, I think you’ve been dealt a really difficult hand and your wife has behaved poorly. In my experience (husband had an EA early in our marriage) you will never know if you have received the whole truth. You may get bits of it or all of it, but you’ll never know. The not knowing ate me up inside for years. The only thing that helped us move forward was the knowledge that we were both putting in the work consistently to get to a good place. And it took a long time.

You can only judge her on her actions going forward, be patient with her and yourself and see if you can live with it. It will be a different marriage. But that’s only right, as things have necessarily changed. I wish you all the best. I would have been royally pissed off if my husband did what your wife has done.

You're entitled to feel hurt, angry, lost and confused. Your feelings are valid and natural.

When people post problems on mumsnet, readers take note of their tone and the words they use in their responses and make inferences. Many of these are right.

What's worrying people here is the language you've used when you've been offended by replies and the way your anger is flaring. Online is one thing, offline quite another...

If anyone came here and posted that when their spouse was angry their spouse swore at them,used foul language and called them names, people would be rightly telling that poster that said spouse was abusive.
No matter whether the spouse was male or female.

Some of your replies to people, as I pointed last night, have been unacceptable - and telling. They tell us that you're anger may flare this easily in real life, that you probably speak to most people like this when angry and mean that we're wondering if you speak to your wife this way. Because if you do, then that is abusive.

It's not wrong to be offended by some of the replies you get, people don't always get it right when interpreting posts and get the wrong idea. Where anger and abusive language is displayed quickly, however, its always challenged.

It isn't wrong to feel angry and offended by any of the replies you've received, what is an issue is what you so with those feelings and how you react in the moment.

If, in real life, your temper can and does flare in the same way it has here, if you talk to people - especially your wife - in the way that you have here, then quite frankly for women that is frightening.

Male temper and anger IS frightening for women.

... And many women, many more than you could possibly realise, have experienced male anger that lashes out and is abusive. We recognise that uncontrolled angry reactions often lead to worse things, when demonstrated in posts (and actually whether the poster is male or female), it's recognised that what we say as readers may be indicative or something much more serious in real life.

I am not suggesting you have abused your wife in any way, I am really not. I don't think anyone else is either.

But people are asking questions because from where we're standing, your responses make us wonder whether you're safe to be around in real life.

And that's just it, it's wondering, not a conclusion, not a mind-made-up, just a wondering.

Don't be offended, it isn't personal - women have to be on the alert all the time for our own sakes.

You clearly love your wife very much, and you've been through hell in your marriage recently. You're naturally very hurt and you've really listened and taken on board the replies. I respect that you really took on board the one which queried whether the kiss and wounded your ego in a way the gambling hadn't, especially because you'd been quick to anger before.

And it's the fact that you have taken on board replies like that one that mean I give you the benefit on the doubt and think you don't sound like someone who is verbally abusive to their wife. You also apologised quickly when I pointed out last night that your language was unacceptable, which is also reassuring.

But - do a quick check of your behaviour and ask yourself, honestly, do I speak to my wife that way? Because if you do that's not OK

And it's not OK for her to swear at you either.

Perhaps you've just been very frank in your replies and let your offense show because it's words on a screen and perhaps you wouldn't have said the same in real life... Well, same. Some of the replies you've had here wouldn't have been given so frankly face to face, so try not to take them too personally.

Remember that people don't know anything about you both aside from what you've written and we're all coming at this with our own experiences. That's all we have to go one. If people get it wrong, try and see why rather than think they're being deliberately vicious.

A final point...I've written this post in such a way that I hope it won't make you angry, because managing male temper is a thing many of us have to learn to do. But I've only bothered writing it because I don't think you're an abusive husband, just someone going through a lot and I think you deserve to better understand some of the replies you've had.

I appreciate you putting the into that reply. I am angry, but I guess I brought it here so it doesn't flare up in real life. I am not abusive to my wife, but I am not great at dealing with things either. I guess I am not sure of a healthy outlet to express myself. I don't want to seem weak like a doormat, and I don't want to frighten anyone.

I just don't suffer fools. I admit I am quite guarded in that respect. Several comments have come across as needlessly callous with the intent to make me feel worse, and I've felt judged by strangers who clearly some have their own chip on their shoulder.

You are right, these people don't know me or what I've been through.
If people want to believe I'm abusive and controlling because of words I have typed here, then so be it. I don't have to prove anything to anyone here.

My marriage has been challenging, we have both been through a lot. I'm tired. I've endured so much. I want it to be better

Abuse was never an issue.

I am angry, but I guess I brought it here so it doesn't flare up in real life

And that's great, a lot of us bring our anger here and you'll find threads where people say "I just need to vent" - but you'd also notice them saying that they're writing out their feelings here rather than vent them in real life, because it's the internet and if they didn't they'd get a ton of replies taking their posts far too literally!

I'm assuming you're in the UK and while men's mental health doesn't get the attention it needs, there are men's mental health groups around and I wonder if finding one near one you be helpful?

Men's Shed is something that I think is nationwide, but locally to me there are also men's peer support groups set up by men, so that there's a space for dealing with difficult emotions and support going through difficult times. It's worth taking a look online or asking anonymously in your local fb group.

You could also Google your local voluntary services organisation (every county should have one) and see if they know of any - they will have a lot of links to local voluntary and support groups.

Anger is a normal and healthy response, it becomes destructive when we can't express it properly, as I think you know or you wouldn't be here. Does your wife know how angry you are about it?

And I don't mean about scary-anger, we've addressed the question of that, I mean does how much does she know about your feelings now?

You've said that she's been great in the last 6 months and trying to reassure you, also that she's getting help. But I'm wondering if you're keeping some of your feelings from her because (a) you don't know what to do with them and (b) she's not helping with them?

In which case I think you need to share with her how much your struggling and both of you together look for ways to get you support, so that you're tackling it as a team.

You both need therapy, as individual people and as a couple.

I'll point out to you that its rare for a wife to shut down without a long period of trying to talk to her husband and not being heard. Your reactions on this thread suggest that could have been a contributing factor.
I don't think you should have asked her if she was unfaithful while you were on a break, because you did not want an honest answer so it was a loaded question. You should look into whether or not that is a repeating pattern of behaviour for you.

@BoldRobin what I am hearing is that the break up and the reconnecting seems to be centred around your partner/wife. I am wondering whether a) you have had any couples’ counselling to explore your feelings around the gambling/financial infidelity, around why she left etc, and how it felt to be left to look after your children while she was off partying, drinking and having a (single) snog; and b) whether you have had any counselling on your own to come to terms with this? Your in ability to get over the kiss would seem to be as emblematic of the loss of trust (the gambling, her leaving) as much as it’s about ‘a kiss’.

What I think I am gathering from your posts is that you are still deeply hurt by the whole thing, still carrying the sense of betrayal over the events that led to her leaving, and this has made accepting her story of the kiss difficult because it is tainted with all the other stuff.

Without addressing all of that, I think moving forward will always be hard as those hurts will calcify into resentments (and already have begun to do so). If the sexes of the parties were reversed, I think most MN would be saying to a woman - get some therapy, sort out your feelings, rebuild your self esteem and establish some ground rules before even having your spouse move back in. This applies here to you, too.

I appreciate that you’ve children and having her return made the most practical sense at the time, but I think you both need to do some work - both individually and in couples’ counselling - if you want this relationship to improve and recover.

@CautiousLurker01 great post

You made the fundamental.mistake of nagging her to tell you what happened when you'd split.
Marriage over.

Who said I nagged anyone? Marriage over? Gosh you're hysterical some of you

You did. You said you went on about it. That you pushed her to tell you.

And calling PPs hysterical is what the other PP was talking about when they said you come across angry and rude.

Show me where i ever said i went on and on about it and nagged her. I simply didn't. Are you here for a conflict? Do you have anything to offer beyond making stuff up to line up a pop at me and tell me my marriage is over?

You just said my marriage was over because my wife kissed someone drunk during an 8 week separation. I think that's hysterical.

Do you have any reason to think she's been dishonest about the kiss, other than the fact she hid the gambling from you?

I didn't say that, if you pay attention to usernames. I saw a post where you said "I went on and on at her" which seems to have now been deleted. That would constitute nagging. I was trying to help you.

The gambling especially if with joint money would bother me. The snog would upset me too. However you did ask her and she was at least honest with you. There may have been more to it but unless she tells you something else try to let it go. You were not together at the time, remember that. She has been trying really hard to make you feel secure again. You say things have been good. I think you need to focus on the here and now. Is what you now have together worth keeping or not? Only you can decide if what you have together now is worth fighting for or if you really can't forget the one snog and the gambling.

I initially thought confessions of "just a kiss" likely meant more happened but telling me something so "minor" would throw me off the scent and help her feel like she had confessed "something", possibly protecting me from worse pain. She knows we wouldn't be back together if she had gotten sexual with someone in that time. That's my boundary I'm entitled to together or not at the time. I mean, just a kiss is about the most minimised her actions could be. I just come back to "why tell me" if it's so so minor and a momentary mistake? Just let it go?

Deep deep down in all honesty, I've known her half my life. Do I believe in that short space of time she'd have let more happen with a stranger? No. It's not in her character and I believe she loved me at the time...

However, I never saw the gambling coming...

I'm just annoying myself now. I want to let it go

No, someone else accused me of going on and on at her without any evidence, my response was directly addressing that and refuting it. I've nagged nobody but myself over this.

It is worth fighting for. Absolutely. I love her, and aside from this she is an amazing person. I want to spend the rest of our lives together, she says she does to. I'm not proud of my insecurity, but it's been fed. I am aware this is a bit of a journey I'm on here

Then I apologise for misunderstanding your post.

However, calling women on the forum you have come to for help things like "hysterical" is just going to fuel the idea that you seem to dislike women.

You say you want to let it go. Do it. Choose to believe her. Choose to forgive her. If that's what you want. It's in your gift.

I'm sorry you're going through this op. A relationship is nothing without trust. You need to see if this can be regained.

I treat everyone at face value. Act hysterical, I'll say it. Say something hurtful or unhelpful or cold, I'm calling it out. It's not a gender thing. I don't know whether I'm talking to a man or a woman on this forum.

Well, yes, theoretically it's possible she's minimising it so that she can stay with you. Doesn't mean she is though.

If this is your thinking then I suspect nothing would reassure you and the only definite you'd believe was if she came out and told you she'd slept with him.

So ultimately at some point you'll have to make a choice whether to accept her answer and believe her or not.

I've been cheated on by someone who I 100% believed would never cheat - he's too honest, I thought, he loathes cheaters, he'd never do what his dad did, etc.

It messes with your head. No one else will ever have the same innocent trust I gave him, but I also know that unless I want to destroy future relationships I will need to give the benefit of the doubt. So I do.

You will have to differentiate between your fears and reality. If there is no reason to believe that its more, other than your trust in her has been rocked, then you have a decision to make, and this is where therapy comes in - for both of you.