She insists it wasn't cheating, but it still really hurt and I am struggling move on. Help!

[BoldRobin]

I will try and keep this brief. We are currently "happy" and working on our marriage after both getting a taste of losing each other after separating for 2.5 months last year (her decision). Our marriage was complicated, financial infidelity on her part, and a lack of resolution at the time lead to conflict, depression (on her part) and we split. It only last just over 2 months before we eventually worked on things. It has been 6 months we have been "back together". I love her, she is the mother of my kids, my wife and we have been together for over 20 years. I never wanted the separation, she knew all the way through I was ready to work on things. I feel this is important...

When we had the talk about reconciling, I asked her "tell me nothing happened with anyone whilst we were apart" (she was going to friends parties etc) and she immediately confessed to getting drunk and snogging her friends brother at her friends party, just 3 nights prior. She said it was horrible, she instantly felt remorse and found it to just be happening after chatting to him at the bar for a minute or two. She says it was at the end of the night, she pulled away and that was that. She insists (she would) that it was 2 seconds of a mistake, was disgusting and that it "wasn't a long passionate kiss", and reminded me that "we weren't together".

My problems are as follows. Number 1, I can't get it out of my mind, even after 6 months, and things have been good. Is there something wrong with me? The way I see it, how could she? If she means what she says now and she never felt right apart, how could she do that? At the time I was looking after our children whilst she was doing this, heartbroken to put it bluntly. Secondly, I feel guilty for doubting it was "just a kiss". Her language I feel is pure minimalisation, and I dread something more happening. I dread it because it would destroy us, and I couldn't forgive it, so I have buried it due to lack of evidence, benefit of the doubt and a deep down disbelief in her ability to go that far, no matter how drunk.

What bothers me is how it happened? For two people to snog, they have to be close enough. What signals did she give? What did she say? What did he say? Did she really just walk away and carry on dancing with her friends after as she claims? Why tell me if it was "just a horrible 2 second thing" and we weren't together?

I am terrified she has been dishonest. Even if she hasn't it still hurts me to picture my wife kissing another guy like that, drunk or not. Do you think its cheating? I was emotionally invested in us, and she knows I was. She says it meant nothing and she thought we might never get back together. She admits to being ridiculous and wreckless in the moment and is remorseful.

She says she wants us to work and HAS made great effort in the relationship since we got back together, everything is really strong, its just this niggling thing. She says being apart made her realise how good we are and how theres so much worth fighting for. She tells me she loves me and never wants to separate again and has committed to better communication and effort.

Am I pathetic? Should I drop it? Should it matter? I need to stop ruminating. I don't want us to end, but I need the doubt to stop. Its hounding me.

Is my gut feeling that more happened (despite her insisting it didn't and "I wouldn't have done that so soon into a separation after 20 years, what do you take me for?!", or am I just struggling with trust after the financial infidelity and being dumped? I just feel like I am on shaky ground. I love the woman and I want it to work so badly.

I think I am too. I'm not proud of it. I don't and haven't shared it with her but we said we would be open and I've kept this to myself and its festered. I am not the person I was 18 months ago. I was carefree, happy, secure, confident. I'm a shell of that person. People here have commented about how it's all about me, but it's been all about her for the last 18 months and my feelings and the way all of it has affected me has simply not been addressed directly. There are two people in a relationship. I doesn't surprise me on mumsnet that a blokes feelings/healing takes a backseat. I've been honest. It's not been easy to come here and bear all.

I want a long happy marriage. I want her to be happy. Right now my unhappiness is an obstacle but I want to overcome it

Realistically OP, it’s time to accept that the reason the kiss has more of an impact than the gambling (despite the fact the gambling was actually the thing your wife did wrong) is because it has bruised your ego. That bruised ego is then triggering insecurities and rumination. The gambling hasn’t hurt your ego, so you have found it much easier to move on from. That’s pretty normal, but you are the only person who can choose to stop ruminating on your ego injury.

Ha, yeah Mumsnetters can be pretty brutal. I bloody love 'em. They've taught me so much, about so many things. You have to humble yourself a bit though, and take advice that stings, otherwise, what was the point?

There's a fine line between advice that stings, and thinky veiled barbs for their anti man fix.

I can take advice that stings, I know I'm a bit of a wanker for feeling the way I do and it's why I came here, for an honest perspective.

Doesn't mean I have to stand for unnecessary shite. I won't.

I appreciate the honesty. I don't value things said just to further add to my struggle

@BoldRobin i think a lot of posters are projecting and making assumptions about you because you are male (that doesn’t excuse rude retorts but I understand your frustration).

I don’t think the kiss ‘technically’ not being cheating means anything. You were still married, had been in a faithful relationship for over two decades which had unexpectedly been blown up by your wife’s revelations about gambling and her knee jerk reaction to run away from the problem. I wouldn’t consider that as being fully broken up, you were both still processing what had happened and trying to find a way back to each other. Regardless of the technicalities it still feels like cheating which is all that really matters. You probably are conflating your feelings about the lies around the gambling, the sudden leaving and the kiss and it definitely would be beneficial to talk to a therapist, you need some external neutral support to work through this.

It’s great that you and your wife are in a much better place now and that you are both putting more into the relationship. That doesn’t resolve the fact she blew up your lives and instead of looking to you for support decided to run away. That coupled with the kiss feels like massive rejection and also unsettles the foundation of your relationship which you presumably thought was built on mutual trust and confidence in each other. Without addressing those issues and the associated feelings you won’t be able to move forward as you’ll still be worrying that the rug could be pulled from under you at any moment. This is a perfectly reasonable way to feel but you do need to work on it with a therapist and potentially in time discuss with your wife.

You are probably correct.

This is spot on. I love her, she loves me. The last 6 months has been great and she has really tried to move on as have I but the whole ordeal has left a mark. I feel her actions and the way she dealt with everything, and the things she chose to do were highly damaging, but I'm just an egotistical control freak for feeling the effects apparently. I'm just being honest. I'll move on one day, and I can promise it will be with this woman who despite all this is an amazing person otherwise I wouldn't be here. This is just part of the process of me letting it go. Thanks for understanding. It's meant a lot amongst this pile on.

I'm sorry OP you're having a difficult time on here. I don't agree with a lot of comments you've received. I have a few thoughts reading the thread. Firstly, it's so great that you are having therapy yourself. You really deserve some recognition for that. So many men stubbornly refuse to go to therapy and it destroys relationships, including those with children. I can't stress this enough.

Also, gambling is a huge problem. That's a lot of money that was involved. Is she getting help for that? Is she in therapy? I don't think something like that can be fixed without professional help. I also think your trust has been broken. Especially because after the gambling and the resulting putting your financial security in jeopardy, she then took a break from you??? That wouldn't sit well with me.

About the snog, so many poor women on here take back their partners after long affairs (when they were absolutely not separated), or even visits to prostitutes. I think that's why you are getting some negative comments, because she "only" kissed him. Although I can understand how that would feel when you were so broken up you were having trouble eating.

Thank you. I think the reason she ran away is because for the 9 months post gambling revelation, I put too much pressure on her to seek help because I knew how serious it was. I forgave her and understood, and became worried about her and what state she might be in to have done that to such an extent for so long. It caused conflict. She withdrew emotionally. Looking back now, we have discussed it at great length and post reconciliation she has admitted the level of shame she felt was unbearable and she had a lot of self loathing. She says she felt the relationship wasn't salvageable and she felt responsible for it. She ran away. That brutal honesty made a massive difference and I gained a lot of respect for her. She didn't find it easy to be so honest. She sought help during the separation without me around. I think she needed that space. I gave her space and I gave her the separation. It didn't take long (relatively speaking) for her to come back. She said she hated every minute of it and wants to fix everything between us and she is sorry etc. That's why this stupid kiss with this guy hurt more I think. Why do that then?

Yes my ego was hurt. Who's wouldn't be? I'd found out less than a year prior that she had been lying to me for years about something major. Then in my attempts to help I pushed her away and she left me. During that 8 weeks of being apart she partied and kissed another bloke. How do I not feel ego bruised? It's not about just the kiss, I kiss her 50 times a day, it's more so it felt like a massive fuck you to me, for no reason. Yeah she told me and was honest when I made the mistake of asking, but in hindsight I don't think I should have asked, and if it was so meaningless, disgusting and embarrassing as she says, maybe she should have told one last lie.

But she didn't seek help in the end, did she? It's great that she has been sharing her feelings with you, but it's not enough. I think you were right to put pressure on her given what happened with the gambling and the years that it went on for. I think she is refusing to face up to the issues that she was struggling with, and that means they can come up again. And you're right, the kiss with the other person would feel like a bit of a slap in the face, to me.

That's why this stupid kiss with this guy hurt more I think. Why do that then?

@BoldRobin it doesn’t sound like there was a lot of thought involved. It was impulsive at a time when she likely felt she was in free fall, much like the gambling. It’s easy to look at it from a logical perspective and in doing so assign meaning and intent but in the moment that doesn’t necessarily apply. She had blown up her own life, was likely feeling very confused and possibly was in a self destructive state. Addiction comes with a lot of feelings of guilt and embarrassment which is probably why she ran from your relationship. None of this excuses her actions but it does give context.

You may benefit from couples counselling, it will make it easier to address these feelings in a neutral environment. You suppressing them and hoping they go away is not a solution.

She didn’t cheat but that doesn’t mean that you aren’t allowed to feel hurt. Obviously you shouldn’t have asked the question unless you felt strong enough to handle it, or planned to leave depending on her answer.

Honestly I think the way to deal with it is to stop talking about it. Tell your wife you’re moving on and don’t utter another word to her about it or anyone else. Stop feeding your feelings and letting them manifest by giving it so much attention. Eventually you’ll just get over it.

There could be several reasons why.

Selfsabotage she felt she didn’t deserve you, or the marriage .

Low self esteem brought on by the shame of her actions. Can she? Will she? Is she still worthy?

Pure drunken loneliness.

Normally, it’s a mix of all three in situations like this, and all related to her and her (depressed and ashamed) feelings , rather than a reflection on you. That’s what you need to understand.

What I can guarantee her thought process WASN’T : ha ha this is so much fun, that dumbass Dave at home with the kids while I can be wild and partaaaaay!! Whoop whoop! He thinks I’m such a failure? This will show him!Here comes the gravy train! “ which you seem to think it was , and what you need to let go of.

Sorry, I should elaborate. She did seek help during the separation. She started IC, it's on hold at the moment due to NHS shortages. She has shown me evidence of this. Like most she is having to wait now, we can't afford to pay for it. She is not gambling, she is very aware she was/is a recovering gambling addict. We are now very open about it and the conflict has been removed from that subject. The openess around it has helped us feel much closer. It feels like we are dealing with it as one now, and not a push pull dynamic. She has work to do, we both do. The kiss felt like salt in the wound. I'll get called controlling, but I think she should have focused on fixing what was broken rather than seeking out superficial intimacy with strangers for validation when she felt low. Come to your husband for that who just suffered your massive betrayal and blindsided dumping? If the shoe was on the other foot and roles were reversed, 90% of this "mumsnetters" would be telling me as woman to kick this guy to the curb. I don't get enough credit here for how resilient and forgiving I actually have been.

It was a drunken kiss while you weren’t together. Not ideal, and most people would definitely find it hurtful. However, the amount of angst you’re feeling about is really quite scary. It bruised your ego? It goes beyond ‘hurt’ and is coming across as ‘someone touched my possession and I can’t get over it’. This is the vibe to which some posters are reacting.

The fact that you react to comments you dislike with nonsense like ‘this is why men don’t open up’ and ‘so a man isn’t allowed feelings’ is also a pretty clear indication of the sort of person you are. The fact that a man has ‘opened up’ doesn’t mean what he has ‘opened up’ about isn’t problematic and shouldn’t be addressed as such. You are entitled to your feelings, but that doesn’t make them sacrosanct.

This has been the most helpful response. I'm saving this one. Thank you

I don't get enough credit here for how resilient and forgiving I actually have been.

Credit? You want random women on the internet to praise you for deciding to work on your marriage? We do not care. You’re doing it for yourself, not us.

It's nothing to do with someone touching my possession. I have zero ill feelings towards the guy who got to kiss my attractive wife. Not his problem. I'd have kissed her. It's a problem with her action and poor judgement, and what i thought it meant for us, not him. I don't care about him. I am not possessive. I thought we were done. It still hurt.

This would be reacted to entirely differently if I were a woman.

I don't have a great support network. Credit is the wrong word. Most ignoring the hard work I've done and jumping straight to a fragile ego and getting over it. I feel sorry for them. I do. That's the real underlying culture here though isn't it. Sign up to mumsnet to stick the knife into people going through shit. Make themselves feel a bit better. I won't be here again.

There you go. You are jealous, well done for saying it out loud.

You used to be ‘carefree, happy, secure and confident’ until you found out your wife had lied to you and spunked 50k on gambling.

THIS is the issue. It’s THIS that broke your trust, not the kiss, but the kiss feeds into the lack of trust and has turned up in jealousy, that much easier to acknowledge emotion.

You don’t trust your wife because she’s a secret gambler AND THEN she kissed someone. I know you say you’ve been working on things for six months but have you really been ‘working’ on things, or have you been pushing your feelings about the gambling down because you love your wife and you want to get back to ‘normal’? I would kindly suggest that your ‘normal’ has gone. She’s an addict. She needs help for her addiction. You need complete transparency around money. And you need to rebuild your trust. If you can do that, the kiss will disappear, because the kiss is not the problem. It’s the sustained stealing of family money that’s the problem, or should be. Try reframing it.

(PS I am from a family with close ties to gambling, have a deep-seated hatred of it, have seen all of this before, and have zero-tolerance for ‘oooh gamblers are ill and can’t help it’ BS.)

OP, I’m sorry you’re having such a hard time. My questions are:
When you separated, did you and/or your wife believe the marriage was over?
Did you discuss the terms of the separation?

This is what i was driving at when i said "go kick boxing or rock climbing or whatever..". You need a support network of mates, removed from your life to have your back, and nudge you back on the right track when your mental health is poor. Pursuing activities you enjoy is a great way to find this.

There are a few "man haters" on mumsnet, but i've always just disregarded their advice if it wasn't a good fit. You also have to imagine why they hate men, and take their answer within that context. I don't know if it's a culture, i do know that there are many wise people of both sexes on here.

Surely, getting over it is your end game here? So my tuppance worth would be to stop making the kiss, and indeed your relationship, the focus of your life. What you focus on, grows. So try to create balance by filling your life with other stuff, while paying enough attention to maintain your relationship too.

It's so easy to say that as we are women we must be man haters. In reality as we are women we are able to see better from a woman's perspective than a man's. If you want a male opinion then you're on the wrong forum. The fact is that it is your own decision to work on this marriage but it won't work if you have all this anger. I'm sure everyone can see that your wife is no saint. You say lots of people would have ended their marriage over this but you don't want to. Most people wouldn't tell someone to leave a marriage on here unless it was actually abusive. As harsh as some comments are people are also genuinally trying to help.

Would she consider trying Gamblers Anonymous meetings? I know people who have found them really helpful in dealing with the underlying feelings, and working through the shame and guilt. There are both in person and online GA meetings.