Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 14

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5183563-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-13?page=1

I got a little nervous we were running out of space!!! So I made a new tread. I hope that’s OK. @Daftasabroom haven’t seen you for a while. Hope you’re OK and hope I’m not stepping on your toes!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5299389-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-15

Mine had a tantrum the other day because somehow he couldn’t manage his meal on his plate??? Lots of shouting and swearing and it was my fault for serving the meal on “the wrong plates” (pasta bowls as there was a lot of sauce). You could say “you have to laugh”. I didn’t though.

The rages are unbearable. Did you tip the dinner in his lap?

No, my tactic now is to ignore - as challenging him in the moment ends up with more and more shouting. The following day I casually said “the reason your meal was in a bowl was because there was so much sauce that it would have spilled over the plate. And I didn’t appreciate your childish behaviour.” Then I left the room and didn’t mention it again.
After thirty years together I have learnt not to make things worse for myself as I end up frustrated and exhausted. He has improved. He usually doesn’t understand why his behaviour causes me pain, and he’s probably incapable of understanding that, but he understands that it does cause me pain, and often now tries not to.
But it’s still far from easy and I relate to many of the situations and relationships shared here.
We will survive! I have found ways of surviving and thriving in the knowledge that I’ve made an active choice to stay with this man.

How can a person not know that shouting and swearing isn’t a nice behaviour to be on the other end of? Not understanding social queues and being blunt etc I can understand but surely everyone know that shouting and swearing is awful. I don’t buy this.

My husband completely lacks empathy. If I say “try to imagine how you’d feel if a bigger person was screaming and shouting in your face” (it’s no good explaining how I feel, that would have no impact whatsoever) he just says “I’d leave them”.
My husband also has narcissistic personality disorder. It’s not just a label I’ve slapped on him as happens too often these days, I think. He self diagnosed after watching a documentary about someone who killed their whole family when they were about to be rumbled for fraud. He then checked the clinical criteria in the DSM and they fit like a glove.

@Flamingfeline i was also able to make my peace with my decision to stay for quite a while. I knew how not to set him off for the most part. I wasn’t a doormat. I stood my ground when I needed to, but I chose what to make issue of and what not. I let so much go.

But the latest explosion…. I dunno. There was one in the summer when we went out on a boat and he was so so unbelievably awful. When I tried to speak to him a couple of days later about how much he’s upset me (it was really bad!) he said “well I am upset too”.

A piece of me died then I think. How can someone be so utterly vile and abusive and then play the victim and think they’re owed an apology? How can he be upset? How can he think everything is all about him and his feelings? For me that’s the worst part. Not the shouting and names and abuse, but then telling me he is upset and how I need to own my behaviour. That’s much worse!

Do you ever let you DH know when he’s upset you? Does he apologise? Or does he try and make it all about him?

Different things have happened over the years. First I was besotted by him and put up with terrible behaviour beyond anything I’d ever experienced, so I weirdly sort of thought it couldn’t actually be happening. Then after a few years his behaviour resulted in me becoming very mentally ill, my life crashed around me and my children suffered. At that time he appeared to take responsibility and we both undertook a lot of individual and joint therapy. I became well, my career flourished, I no longer tolerated “the behaviour” and I left him. After a year I decided to return, and very shortly after that he became critically ill, an illness that needed very lengthy hospital stays, emergency operations, periods which amounted to years of him being physically dependent on me. He made a recovery although he now has some disabilities and in the meantime we had started to grow old together. Hand on heart I can say we love each other- he intellectually accepts and I think experiences regret for the pain he caused me in so many ways over the years. He’s currently writing a song and the lyrics go “when you say my name, it doesn’t sound the same, I know to my shame that I’ve caused you such pain …” and so on. He means it so far as someone like him can, but personally I don’t think he feels it in the way a typical person would, it’s sort of like hes observing it.
The awful behaviour is a lot less frequent now but all the defensiveness, demand avoidance, minimising, blaming and some of the denying is still there. I manage it without it hurting me as I know my worth, I’m calm,,my life is interesting and fulfilling and we share affection and laughs. The deep intimacy I used to yearn for isn’t possible with a man like him.
i don’t spend my life looking back and regretting, but if I could go back and choose for him never to have entered my life, I would - most of all for my children with whom I’m very fortunate indeed to still have good close relationships.
i would never advise or suggest to anyone in a relationship with a man like mine to stick with it in the hope it will improve. My husband is often liveable with and I rarely consider leaving him now, but this has been thirty years of a lot of mostly hidden anguish, shame and desperation. The fact we’ve got this far is due to my husband’s underlying wish to be a good man although he genuinely struggles to know what that is, my patience, kindness and forgiveness which he frequently acknowledges- and the passage of too much time.

I don’t doubt that perhaps underneath some narcs do feel love. But like you say it’s not a healthy love, it results in lots of codependency. Their behaviour although much like a tantrumimg toddler is so hard to be on the other side of. I struggled with my ex to swing between being shouted at and feeling scared to then going right back to normal. A body and mind can’t work like that, it eventually takes its toll. I don’t doubt that my ex probably loved me but his demons destroyed the love and me and he moved on unscathed.

@BustyLaRoux i should have also said, I am 100 per cent behind you in your decision to leave. Enough is enough and we should seize life while we have it.
My husband said to me just now with a contented smile “we’re growing old together, aren’t we?”. Meaning for him, his routines and safety are established and we each get on with our own lives while I also “service” him. Meaning for me, I have put my hopes and dreams for intimacy, adventure, behind me. I am not yet seventy, and still feel young.

@Flamingfeline it sounds like you’ve worked incredibly hard to get where you are. I suppose I’d hoped maybe me and DP could get to broadly where you are.

I thankfully don’t have children with DP. He’s an awful parent in many ways. He manipulates them and exposes them to far too much. They idolise him. I wonder what he is teaching his autistic son when he’s standing there shouting at me to FUCK OFF over and over, making out he’s the victim because I haven’t thanked him for the shopping he did for me (which I would rather have done myself and made dinner when I wanted, instead of being left with hungry children and unable to make dinner as he’d taken my car to the pub and I didn’t have the food I needed and couldn’t go to the shops). He can’t see he’s in the wrong. So he shouts and swears and name calls, then storms out the house taking his son with him. I imagine they sat in (another!) pub then while he went on about how ungrateful I am. How kind he is. How awful women are. He’s teaching him it’s OK to rage at your partner. It’s OK to abuse them. If you’re in the wrong, then play the victim and shout your way out of “trouble” instead of owning it and apologising. That’s what he’s teaching him. He is vile about their mother. Invents narratives which aren’t true. Telling them she doesn’t want to see them etc. I’m so glad I don’t have to parent with this man.

I don’t think DP has quite the capacity for change that your DH has. He can and has accepted responsibility for things. He can apologise. But usually he apologises for the wrong thing. He doesn’t get it! This time he’s apologised for shouting. He even apologised to my son who witnessed him shouting like that at me. But afterwards when he’d gone, I spoke to my son and said I want you to know that he’s apologising for the wrong thing. It’s not the shouting which is the problem here. Or the swearing. These are just symptoms. Surface level behaviours. You can stop those or apologise for them, but they don’t change the fundamental problem. Why is he shouting in the first place? Why is me being annoyed with him causing him to be angry rather than apologetic? I had every right to be annoyed. No one would say otherwise. We are human. We all make mistakes. And he made a mistake. The correct thing to do is say sorry. Even if he hadn’t shouted at me, he would still have been angry that I called him out on his mistake. Aggrieved I hadn’t thanked him for the shopping. Played the victim. The shouting is just one symptom of who he is. He needs to change as a man (sounds like your DH has done that to some degree?). But I don’t think DP can change to that level. All he can do is focus on the surface level behaviours. And I guess that’s not enough for me.

@BustyLaRoux and it shouldn’t be enough. You deserve - everyone deserves - better than that, whether or not the other person understands what they’re doing or has the capacity to understand. We can tie ourselves up in knots with these questions - I know I have over the years.
I was interested this morning in mine’s reaction to something. As we get older our body odour changes 😬 and I feel we need to be extra careful to keep clean. I’m not fussy at all nor a clean freak but my husband doesn’t go out a lot so he sometimes neglects to shower as much as he might. This morning he announced he was going to have a shower and I said pleasantly “that will be nice”. His reply was “how do you know it will be nice? You’re not me!”. Well, I said “it will be nice for me!” I was honestly being perfectly polite and friendly, I was genuinely pleased. Cue “you’re treating me like a child, how dare you tell me that I stink!”
I ignored this, carried on puttering about, and about ten minutes later he said I had no right to criticise him and say he stinks (I didn’t!) because I spilt tea on the floor this morning and he got his socks wet 😂. Blooming heck it’s like everything has to be seen as a criticism and there is an immediate counter attack. It’s exhausting. So I looked straight at him and said that I think we both need to be very careful with our personal hygiene as we get older … he replied that there must be something wrong with my olfactory glands …I replied calmly that there’s nothing g wrong with my sense of smell and I can smell him, and that if he had told me I smelt I would be absolutely mortified , dash straight into the shower and make sure it never happened again (as you would).
so here’s the progress now. There was a silence, with some interior brain work taking place. The rusty cogs whirred. And he said “ok from now on I’ll have a shower every day”.
“oh that’s great” I said with a friendly smile. And wandered into the bedroom for a little lie down.
so yes, he tries, there’s progress and it doesn’t escalate in the way it used to, usually. It’s exhausting though. Life with him is exhausting.

Exhausting is right.

DP wouldn’t take offence if I told him he smelt. He would just shower. Probably laugh. I can be really candid with him about some things. Things which other people would get quite huffy about. My exDH for example would have been angry and defensive if I’d told him he smelt. DP is great in that I could say something like that and he would just think “oh ok, so I need to have a shower”. It wouldn’t occur to him to find that offensive. I like that about him. I like how blunt I can be. This has meant we have had some very honest conversations about sex. There’s no taking offence or feeling wounded pride. (Sorry if this is TMI!). I have been able to say quite openly when I don’t like something or even, the other day, that what he was doing was really annoying! It’s made for a really good physical relationship. I couldn’t do that with anyone else. Has I tried to speak to my exDH like that he would have been hurt and embarrassed. So there are advantages to him being the way he is.

But he manages to find criticism in very odd areas. Me repeating myself is seen as criticism that he wasn’t listening the first time. Me innocently asking “oh ok, don’t you know your bank account number?” He sees as me saying he’s stupid. Me asking if he will get the hoover out is me criticising him for being a lazy slob. This is the exhausting part.

And he absolutely can’t handle me being annoyed with him. It makes him furious. He doesn’t seem able to cope with that. He was the same with his ex. Although he’s trying to say it’s me that causes this extreme reaction in him. More victim blaming and DARVO.

I am preparing myself to move past the car episode as I don’t dwell on things and it will be easier to move out if we are speaking. I think he’s had the silent treatment for long enough now. 😀

@BustyLaRoux mine is the opposite re sex unfortunately. It’s a huge no go, scary area full of hang ups and any communication around sex has been like torture for him. It’s been a great sadness. Ideally for him it would have been always silent and in complete darkness, and although eventually we’d reached some understanding, various medical issues now mean it’s off the table, well bed 😂 nothing so deviant as a table … for now or maybe for ever.
Does yours know you’re leaving or are you “getting your ducks in a row” as MN has it?
Quite a revelation to find these threads as a lot of what’s being said really resonates with me. It’s a relief - sort of - although I feel so sorry that many people are going through this.

I’m leaving insofar as I’m moving out. We have agreed to stay in a relationship. I do think I would miss him if things were ending completely. I do enjoy his company. As I said, our physical
relationship is good. He can be generous and thoughtful. He will do things if I ask (put up pictures etc). I won’t miss the mess he makes and the piles of not dealt with paperwork. The two shelves worth of jars in the fridge (no room for a weekly shop!) and the multiple Tupperware boxes of gone off rice and pasta he wants to keep for weeks. (If I start trying to clear them out he feels criticised! So I have to do the odd one here or there so as not to pile on the criticism, as it were. Exhausting!). I won’t miss his bombastic self important son. I won’t miss the smell of fatty meat cooking all the time. And the pans soaking by the sink for four days. I won’t miss the snoring every night.

I will miss cuddles and someone to chat bollocks to. I will miss him bringing me coffee in bed in the morning. I will miss having someone to look after me when I’m sick. I will miss watching TV with him. I will miss having someone to massage my feet/back. He is an excellent carer. And it is nice to be cared for. My exDH wouldn’t run out to the shop for me for medication if I was sick. He used to resent me being ill and make out like I was exaggerating to get out of childcare (which was obviously 90% my job in his eyes). It’s nice having him around a lot of the time.

So I hope with most of the contentious stuff out the way (borrowing my car, living with his son, mess), we will enjoy each other’s company instead. Maybe this is the best of both worlds.

I know he still had the potential to rage when there are perceived sleights. I don’t think he can change that. But I can leave/ask him to leave. I won’t have to put up with the sulking and silent treatment. I think this move gives me a bit of power back. I am very excited about having my own space for me and my children.

I am so pleased I’ve found this thread. All the stuff that my husband does that I thought was just him - and some of it is of course - fits with the ND we realised he did have but had weirdly never really thought about.
He talks to himself aloud a lot of the time. Even when we are walking down the street together 🙀. Arguments in which he takes both sides, the one that’s him always winning the argument of course. I’ve realised this is a way of self soothing/emotional regulation however it happens a great deal of the time. Does this resonate with anyone? I’ve always accepted this as part of his personality. It’s sometimes confusing when I think he’s talking to me, or alternatively he IS talking to me but I think he’s talking to himself and ignore him!
I gather this can be a trait of neurodiversity but not sure how common it is at least to the extent my husband does it!

Hi flaming, glad you found something familiar here.

im feeling better having disengaged. Trying to make it work takes a lot of energy and i cant be in a marriage when things are not reciprocated - by which I mean the very basics like answers to questions. I’m spending my energy on things I find more productive, he’s like a black hole absorbing all the effort I can throw in but letting one of it out.

I think my marriage is dead. It has been for a long time. Still carry on either the status quo, apply for a new job, get fitter, visit my family and have a nice time.

@Seriestwo answers to questions!! Grrr …well done for disengaging. Your plan sounds superb - get fitter, new job… there is a brilliant life out there x

Absolutely @Seriestwo , such a positive attitude. We all come here to share, gripe, try to understand and complain which are all fine, especially since we can't do this elsewhere and be heard or understood. But it would be much better for each of us to disengage, and learn to focus on ourselves and our own happiness. We cannot change them, only ourselves, our reactions. Better to invest in what is truly good for us. Good food, personal care, health and well-being, things we love to do, our own ambitions and desires in life. These things we do have control over and in the end will make us happier. It is not being selfish but rather realistic...

It’s been over 20 years of trying to fix it. I told myself about 15 years ago that I’d not leave without a clear conscience, that if I was going to turn everyone’s lives upside down by breaking up the marriage (and therefore the family) that I’d manage it if I knew I had exhausted every attempt to fix it. I have. And then I’ve sat on it for another five or so years, hoping for change.

This is delusional and self sabotaging. He does not mind me being sad and lonely, he does not even mind that his behaviour causes me distress. He knows he is breaking his marriage vows and that I put equal weight on “cherish” as “forsake all others”.

Why would I want to be with a man who treats me this badly? What is wrong with me?

im going to the gym most days. Im planning a little holiday. I’m drinking less unless I’m seeing friends when I’m drinking more. I’m making a point of going out and doing nice things because I want to. Life is nicer.

I don’t need him to be happy, I was always happy before I was married. Irony.

we’ll see if this new “fuckit” attitude persists. It might not, but I hope it does. It might be enough to live like this within the marriage. I don’t mind if it’s not and I have to divorce. It would be a shame, but less of a shame than living like this.

this post was interesting. I think it applies to my situation, and why he states that he is 9/10 happy but I am 1/10.