Really worried about my relationship with my daughter...

[TiredTeacherToday]

My daughter is 18 and came home from university for Christmas last weekend.

She has always had quite a volatile personality and, although we've always been close, her mood has tended to dictate the atmosphere in the house at times. She can switch from delightful, reasonable, personable and loving in one second to the opposite in an instant without warning. There are no tangible or predictable 'triggers'. She switches without warning and once the black cloud/red mist has descended there's no way of de-escalating.

I'm a teacher, I know how to de-escalate a dysregulated child - what to and not to say and do - and how not to escalate it further but it's never been easy. This improved massively once her A Levels were over and she had matured hugely over the last 6 months before turning 18. We had a really lovely summer with relatively little conflict.

However, she has one friendship that seems to bring out the worst in her. I am NOT blaming this friend for my daughter's choices or behaviours but they are worse when she has been with her.

They have been friends with since starting secondary school. I don't really know her because she hadn't been round to the house at all until this summer. There are many reasons for this and none are because she hasn't been welcome. They are mainly because my daughter has wanted to keep some distance between her friend and her family. I'm only describing her circumstances because they feel relevant and give context to my daughter's behaviours. NOT because I am judging her based upon them.

Her friend is a very troubled young woman and has been dealt a really shit hand by life - she was removed from her parents care at 3 months old (drug use, DV and chaotic lifestyles. One parent and an older sibling are in prison). She has spent her teenage years being hospitalised for suicide attempts, absconding from care, moving children's homes etc.

She left care at 18 (she's just recently turned 19) and was allocated a room in supported accommodation - like a halfway house towards independence for careleavers. She left school with no qualifications but found a job. My daughter and another friend helped to make her room homely. She was really excited about a fresh start and it all seemed really promising. This was the first time I met her.

However, she only stayed there a few weeks before losing the room because she left. Ultimately, she is a very lost little girl who has experienced deep trauma and is desperate to be loved. She absconded from her various children's homes and this accommodation because she travels across the country to find her birth mother. Her mother moves between HMOs and areas and has no stability so she can't live with her. She has since left two more accommodations for the same reason.

Since leaving school, the disparity in their lives has become more amplified and more apparent.

Her friend has now moved to a completely different area of the country and in with her boyfriend of 6 or 7 weeks and his dad and I'll admit, I'm very concerned for her welfare. She's had a couple.of pregnancy 'scares' since my daughter left and a few of the girls she was in care with have had babies since leaving care - at least one has been removed and another is on a CP Plan - and she has talked about creating her own family. It's terribly sad and my daughter is understandably concerned that she is intending to become pregnant and can see how much their paths have diverged. She is very worried about her friend.

Her friend's life now centres around the 'drama' associated with a trauma informed chaotic lifestyle - bouts of homelessness; problems with benefits; problems with 'the social'; hers and her other friends' dysfunctional and often abusive relationships; day drinking; her pregnancy scares and her other friends' involvement with CP SWs; and her (understandable) anger towards her mother. There isn't much fun in her life. It's all bouncing from one crisis to the next, conflict, hostility and confrontation and her experiences are really the only conversation she has. Like I said, she is surviving. Not living. This is her normal and it's terrible.

So how does this impact the relationship between my daughter and me?

Well, when they have spent time together, my daughter expresses the same level of anger, aggression and hostility towards me as her friend does towards her own mother and 'authority figures' in her life. She can't seem to separate their different experiences.

She reacts to really inocuous things I say to her angrily and with hostility. She uses 'fighting talk' when she engages with me, and it comes out of nowhere. Eg she went out with this friend the other day to do chrostmas shopping and buy some toys for our pet (my daughter has really missed him while away). They both came back to the house and showed me what they'd bought. All full of happiness and fun - just like two 18/19 year olds who have spent a nice afternoon together.

One of the toys, our pet already has so, after saying all the right things about everything and it all being lovely and nice, I suggested she put that one toy away until he the other needed replacing expecting her to say, "Oh, ok. No problem." Instead, she unnecessarily argued with me that he didn't already have one and then started 'posturing' and accusing me of trying to be a 'bigman' (which, my son tells me, is language used by certain groups of people when they are spoiling for a fight). Just out of the blue and unnecessarily aggressive. She went upstairs and sent me texts telling me she wasn't coming home at Easter and as soon as she was out of university, I'd never have to see her again. She didn't speak to me for nearly 24 hours. She frequently threatens going nc with me.

I checked the time stamps of her messages telling me they were in a taxi 5 mins from home and the one of her telling me she wasn't coming home at Easter and there were 11 minutes between them.

I have no problem with her moaning about me to her friends - we all do that. But she also talks to her older brother and he is also very concerned.

He says that the person she describes when talking to him about me isn't one he recognises at all. He doesn't ever tell me what she's said, because she speaks to him in confidence, but he has said it has gone way beyond gripes about me reminding her to keep her room tidy and she speaks about me quite venomously. And with all the anger and hostility her friend talks about her life. He describes it as though, when she has spent time with this friend and been exposed to her high conflict conversations and relationships she sees our relationship through the same lens. Yet, she has also told me that she knows this friendship won't survive long term because of her friend's dysfunctional world view.

I don't know what to do. After living without any conflict for 3 months, I'm finding its return quite difficult. I feel anxious all the time and, when I hear her key in the door, my heart pounds because I don't know which version of her I'm going to get, whether or not it's going to change or what's going to trigger it.

She's thriving at university - doing well on her course so far, has settled in well. She has a boyfriend who she describes as treating her well, lovely friends, has some great flatmates, has joined a couple of clubs, and has a part time job she can return to in the holidays. We speak on the phone and message each other.

She worked hard to save for university and is is loving the independence. I'm so bloody proud of her and I have told her so.

But she's come home and I feel like I'm living in Trainspotting. It's gone way beyond normal returning from university and being an arse-ness.

I don't know what to do but I'm really concerned that the narrative she has created in her head is the one she will remember. She's battling an adversary who only exists in her imagination!

She refuses to do anything family related with us (and has for some.time now). But then accuses me of not including her. She is creating a narrative of dysfunction that no one else recognises.

I'm worried that, we won't reach the other side of this because she will have withdrawn from me so much and created such a distance that she won't know how to get back.

I don't know what to do.

I'm really sorry this is so long!

I can only sympathise. The narrative my adult child has about her childhood and teens is nothing like what actually went on. The divide between us is massive, yet before she got her boyfriend we were best mates, I helped her through her MH problems, encouraged her to drive/work and be independent, like I thought I was supposed to. But that’s all been thrown back at me and I hardly hear from her, it’s only when she wants something.
it’s hard to take, I thought I’d done everything right, she was my first born. People say she will come back to us when she matures or becomes a mum, but I can’t see it happening and it makes me sad, so I try not to think about it.

She just sounds immature to me tbh. If it's as you describe then I wouldn't get dragged into it - on the surface anyway. Although I know it's a very small thing, I probably wouldn't have suggested that she not give a gift to the dog that she had bought - you can't build a Time Machine and go back but I'd have probably just said 'ooh how nice: he loves that toy! Great gift!'

But in general it just sounds like a teenage strop which you'd think she'd be coming out of but they're still very self absorbed and dramatic at 18

I'd trial ignoring her more inflammatory statements, showing interest in the friends welfare and just keeping the door open

Honestly I'd stop saying anything negative to here all.

I adopted a policy a long time ago of never criticising my children's decisions once they got past 16. I just let them find out the hard way if necessary.

So she got your pet a duplicate toy. Not necessary to say anything. Maybe your pet would like two.

Your daughter sounds generally a lovely sensible girl who is keeping her life on track and trying to support a friend while not get entangled in her friend's lifestyle.

Is her dad around? Has she ever had any professional help to get to the root of her anger? What were her first three years like? Any stresses?

Agree with others. She is 18. Has effectively left home and needs time to explore who she is as an adult. It sounds like the friendship is pretty toxic, but the chances of it surviving given the way their worlds are moving in different directions is pretty slim (sadly as it sounds like the other girl really needs it).

You need to take a step back, apologise for upsetting her. It hadn't been your intention. Explain you would like to understand why she feels so strongly towards you. And. If you can swallow you're motherly pride (hard to do because they will always be our babies), I would ask her if she would be up for family counselling. Explain you too are finding your way on this whole being a grown up daughter thing and you will make mistakes but you want to work through them.

I had a very tricky relationship with my mother. If she had done both of the above it would have made me feel like she cared.

I would keep her at arms length for now until she grows up. She has adopted her friends narrative as a way to fit in , she sounds embarrassing honestly , telling you to stop being a “big man” . If she was my dd I would tell her to get her fresh mouth out of my house, reminding her that her friends woes are not hers and she is bloody lucky to have the life she has had.

Thanks.

I already do ignore her more inflammatory comments. I certainly don't engage or argue back with her.

It's hard to know what to for the best. I've tried explaining myself but that angers her. I've tried grey rocking it but she just follows me round the house repeating, "You're rude. You're just rude. You're a child. You're pathetic." Which I don't rise to but that also angers her.

Although I know it's a very small thing, I probably wouldn't have suggested that she not give a gift to the dog that she had bought

I see with you're saying but it wasn't a criticism. I should be able to talk to her about prettyundane stuff without it escalating to threats of going no contact.

Well done for not reacting, not sure I could’ve avoided being furious at that point.

I think she’ll grow up. Brains don’t mature until the age of 25, you’ve got a while yet. Must be so tough though, and infuriating, as you sound about as nice a mother can be!

"She's battling an adversary who only exists in her imagination!"

I have no idea if this is helpful or not, but my exh used to do this, and he was a covert narcissist. He seemed to live in an alternate reality where I was the worst person ever.

But he also had various other MH problems.

It does sound as if your daughter has some MH problems, to be so up and down, and overly reactive to things, and very negative about you.

I suggest an appointment with her GP to explore MH issues. And you should go along, because people with MH issues can't always see what they're like; it often takes the observer to report accurately.

Your DD sounds like she's got poor boundaries, and is somewhat muddled between real life and fantasy. She also sounds like she might be 'dopamining' - seeking out drama in order to get her dopamine fix. It's quite neurodivergent behaviour.

She will mature but I think grey rock is a good approach - with you explaining to her your red lines.

"I should be able to talk to her about pretty mundane stuff without it escalating to threats of going no contact."

Exactly, yes you should, which is why I suspect MH issues.

Just to add I agree there was nothing wrong with what you said. My similar age dds would have been fine with that. It does sound like a MH issue though.

"I've tried grey rocking it but she just follows me round the house repeating, 'You're rude. You're just rude. You're a child. You're pathetic.' "

I've just read this part. Whaaaaat?? I cannot believe that she speaks to you that way. That is abuse.

I think you should stop ignoring her bad behaviour. She needs 1) to know that she can't talk to you that way and b) the MH help that I talked about above.

We've already had those conversations.

When she's lovely her, theres no problem.

I've read and appreciate all.the responses and can see it from different viewpoints.

However, a few weeks ago, she was headbutted and broke her nose in a sporting injury at university. She went to A&E with a friend - it wasn't serious. They checked her over and said it would set straight so no problem.

She texted me about it late in the evening to tell me. Apparently, the sports coach asked if she wanted to call her mum when it happened - she was in a lot of pain and was obviously crying - and she said no. She told me afterwards it was because she thought I wouldn't care!

So the narrative is already pretty deeply set.

Well, in that case I think you should sit your daughter down and tell her strongly that you care very much, and for that reason you want the two of you to go to a MH appt together. Also explain to her that her behaviour is not normal or acceptable, and that you're tired of being the villain when it's so inaccurate.

Some vastly differing views on here, I think I'd go down the shit sandwich route.

I love you very, very much.
Your present behaviour towards me is unacceptable and it has to stop.
I'm always here for you if you need me.

I'd be tempted to put it in a text.

It sounds like you've never challenged her or laid down the law. All the fuss and drama about the dog's toy, it sounds like she's looking for opportunities to kick off.

I wouldn't put up with a teenager following me around the house trying to goad me; she's being a bully. It also sounds like she squared up to you.

You need to put your foot down and stop hand wringing.

I am also reading this and wondering if your daughter might be neuro diverse. Maybe read up on these things in girls. You sound like a really nice caring person.

Ooh some very astute observations here!

And ones I hadn't necessarily picked up on.

The friend in question has ADHD, her boyfriend is HFA and we have ADHD and ASD in our family (all diagnosed). Of all of us, though, I'd never considered that she might also be affected. She seems to me to be the most NT out of everyone! But 'dopamining' is a very good way of describing what she is doing. However, she doesn't display any other ADHD traits - good executive function and appropriate responses otherwise etc.

To answer another question, her dad and I separated when she was 6 because his personality is similar to hers. No ND, his is due to growing up with emotionally immature and high functioning alcoholic parents.

Both her dad and I are educated professionals. We co-parented well after we split up, she and he had a very good relationship until she hit around 15 (after lockdown) when he couldn't cope with the fact his little girl had become a young woman seemingly overnight to him. He can be quite emotionally.manipulative and she does struggle with that sometimes.

I've always tried to be a reasonable, measured and safe influence. I have a lot of experience working with children and young people with MH and SEND issues and a good grounding in/understanding of childhood trauma. But maybe I've missed signs in her.

You sound like a reasonable person trying to do the best for your daughter. One thing that is coming up from reading your posts though is you don’t seem to have much capacity to explore you might be doing anything at all wrong. So while the behaviour of your daughter is, from what you’ve described, unacceptable, some of her angst may well be rooted in feeling like she’s not truly heard. I say this because I grew up with a mum who largely had my best intentions at heart but some of the things she said and does and still does now, although may not be ill intended, are actually controlling or offensive on the receiving end. For instance the dog toy example, yes it’s not a major thing you said but her experience might feel like you always criticise in some way and your responding comment that you should be able to say those kind of things is what peaked my interest as there sounds like some disconnect between how you assume she is experiencing you and how she is actually experiencing you and if you don’t connect with that piece and have some understanding of how she feels, which you must respect is her own valid experience, then you won’t move forward

@TiredTeacherToday I can't offer any more advice but I think it is pretty normal for kids once they leave home not to phone their parents as soon as they get injured. The narrative about you not caring is odd, but is there a chance you are helicopter parenting in the slightest? It may be her way of kicking back and asserting her independence.

@TiredTeacherToday

I mentioned ND because it's really difficult for parents to spot it as they automatically make accommodations for it at home. School staff are less likely to pick it up because girls internalise symptoms/mask (I'm a SENDCo in case you hadn't guessed; also have AuDHD DS1 aged 12).

She might be masking executive dysfunction by having excellent systems (I've found technology to be the making of me).

Might be worth a visit to the GP and a bit of research into Right to Choose?

Done that. It made no difference.

We've talked extensively about our relationship, her friend's childhood trauma, her dad's life experiences etc. All in age appropriate ways of course but she has a really good understanding of it all. I'm not going into any of this unaware and nether is she.

Her brother has also talked with her about these things from an 'another child in the family' perspective.

We're a family who talks.

But it's useless. She's accused me of doing things I simply haven't done and will argue them.

Eg her dad is very risk averse. He was clinically vulnerable and still works from home following covid because he's too scared to return to the office. He barely leaves the house. I, like all school staff, returned to school during lockdown and resumed normal life as soon as I was able to.

When restrictions lifted, he refused to let her restart her sporting activities due to risk of infection. I was strongly against this but he worried her so much that "daddy.might die" if she caught covid that she refused to go back.

Within 12 months, she was arguing that he'd always wanted her to go back and it was me who stopped her. Nothing I said made any difference.

It took her brother sitting her down and talking her through it all, the difference in mine and her dad's attitudes and how we each respomded after covid for her to consider that her version events didn't make sense. But that is still what she remembers.

Your post is really well written and much of it resonated with me as how I feel about my eldest child who is a little older than your DD now. This is pretty much a play by play description of our dynamic (without that friend but always the drama in some way). It doesn’t bear ANY resemblance to reality a lot of the time. She will say things like she assumed I didn’t want to spend any time with her as I don’t care about her, when I’ve been a very present parent (far more than her father and I am the one who is punished for it). in fact I put elements of my life on hold to be with my kids, as many parents do, I speak to her all day every day, I am just always around, responsive, understanding. I love her.

I did take her to therapy and this is what they told me, she sees me as a safe vessel for her feelings. All the anger she has with her dad, her own life, friends, work isn’t my fault but I am a safe receptacle to trauma dump it all so she feels better, relieved, heard etc. sometimes she wants me to come up with a solution too. I am enmeshed with her as I can often only see my little girl who needs her mum and not the adult woman who is being rude and behaving badly.

Everyone tells me time helps when they get older. But I also worry about what she tells herself or everyone else that blatantly isn’t true. I also have another child who says WTF to the things my DD said as they aren’t reality/true.

And yes I think my DD is ND but she is not formally diagnosed with ASD, but ADHD.

She also flips and switches on me which is very disorientating. A simple knock on her the saying good morning or do you want anything from the shop DD could be met with a vitriolic tongue lashing about how she is going to leave home and blocking on her phone completely unexpectedly.

Yet when she wants to talk I am expected to give her my undivided attention regardless of what I am doing. I do try to accommodate her but it’s like being in the crystal maze all the time